Family pressure to go to church

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Comments

  • mrsozzymrsozzy texasGold Women Posts: 1,950
    Angeline said:
    @Monkeys_Uncle - all that assumes a sane, non toxic family. It has been hinted more than once that my continued access to son and grandchildren is dependent upon my membership and activity level in their church. What Athol was speaking of above was a situation such as the 911 poster Jon was in, where his MIL was actively campaigning to have him arrested on DV charges to dissect him out of the childrens' lives. That is very much not the same BS you'll deal with anywhere. Cultural influences can be poisonous, I agree, but fighting a non-existent assault or incest charge is ten times so. You can't reason with crazy. That isn't to say something that extreme is happening here in @TwoDogs' family, he'll need to decide if they are capable of that level of nefarious deeds, but Mrs. Jon is having a hard time believing it even when confronted with actual evidence vs speculation. It really does happen that in-laws will interfere and wreak havoc based religion. And lest this turn into a religion bashing thread, I've seen it happen the other way around as well - the kids and grandkids join a faith or church seen as "too" religious or cult-y, and the parents, either of a less evangelical faith or agnostic/atheist, try to interfere with custody. The point is not that this or that religion or lack of is The One True Way, but that common sense and fairness can go out the window when it comes to children and grandchildren. The cost of moving pales in comparison to the cost of defending against made up charges, or even just the stress of being constantly on the defensive.
    If you think your relatives are BSC enough to do something like call CPS or fabricate crimes, then yes, you need to move. If that's the case, they are probably BSC in other areas of life and they must be avoided at all costs.
    Monkeys_UncleAthol_Kay
  • Monkeys_UncleMonkeys_Uncle RuralGold Men Posts: 4,045
    @Angeline, absolutely.  I didn't take TwoDogs situation to be that extreme, or at least not yet.   It sounds like he has a close family who aren't yet aware that he and his wife have rejected their spiritual views.  If they assume he shares their views and is just lazy about going to church, it's to be expected that they would try to get him to up his Church Game with the new addition to the family.  There will absolutely be some stress and drama if/when the truth comes to light.   I'm just saying, as somebody who has shared the same worries he is expressing, that an amicable peace is often possible, and for us it has been worth the drama we went through to get there. 

    "My advice to you is get married:  if you find a good wife you'll be happy, if not, you'll become a philosopher." -Socrates

    Angeline
  • twodogstwodogs USASilver Member Posts: 359
    Thanks for the advice everyone.  It's great to see I'll have some company as I burn in hell for eternity.  jk, but seriously, it's not a situation where they're going to disown me or anything.  I think in their mind they will really think "if you want to burn in hell that's your decision, but I'm not letting you take my granddaughter/niece with you."  So I think they will put lots of pressure there.  Some of my extended family has stayed very close with everyone in my family except me.  With me on the rare occasion that I reach out to them (for example, to congratulate them on having a baby, etc.) they reply with a simple, "Thanks" and if I ask how the baby is, nothing.  I really couldn't care less about that though.  

    One of you mentioned my family feeling that they're obligated to make sure my daughter goes to church.  That's exactly right.  I grew up obligated to get all of my friends to go to church.  My high school was basically class and trying to get my friends to go to church with me all week, then football on Friday night, nailing my girlfriend after the game and again on Saturday, then church on Sunday.  Typical.  So I see where they're coming from when they feel it's their duty to "save" me.  It's just tough since I stopped drinking the kool-aid. 
  • Britguy68Britguy68 CanadaSilver Member Posts: 2,063
    Can't you just ultimatum them? Stop or we move?
    "And a man....a man provides. And he does it even when he's not appreciated, or respected, or even loved. He simply bears up and he does it. Because he's a man."
  • twodogstwodogs USASilver Member Posts: 359
    @BritGuy68 if it gets to that point I may have to.  We're a long way from there, but I could see it happening in a few years.
  • JemStoneJemStone UtahGold Men Posts: 252
    Please don't move to run away or avoid confrontation!  That's not alpha and not helpful.  It's not MAP consistent -- the MAP is about a better you, and a better you isn't about avoiding your problems.  It's about making the best decisions possible with what you've got.  And it sounds like you've got a situation.  =)

    Do move if they can't have an honest discussion with you and start end-running around your authority as a parent.

    You mentioned that your family doesn't know much that you've gone away from your spirituality.  You seem to want to have things stay the same with them but keep this under wraps.  This is a potential bomb and one that you helped create.  You can diffuse it by dealing with it on your terms/schedule... or you can let it go off on their terms/schedule.  You don't have to tackle it all at once, but the longer you wait the weirder and potentially bigger it's going to get.  Moving is just giving up.  I think that's fine to do in some situations, but from what you've described you aren't there yet.  Only you know your family's potential -- if they are BSC enough to just move or if you want to try and make this a non-issue for your family.

    Whatever you decide, it will be a tough one.  =)
    Go forth, and be awesome. Barring a medical issue, she will follow.  --Angeline
    twodogs[Deleted User]
  • DarknessDarkness Auckland, New ZealandMember Posts: 11

    Some battles you just can't win, and this is one of them.  They will never stop trying to "save" your children.  If it really bothers you, (and it would me), then you'll need to take heroic action to minimise it.  As I see it, you have 3 options:

    1. Move.

    2. Join a different church.  Religious people often are more accepting of an alternative belief than they are of no belief at all.

    3.  Alpha up big time.  Tell them that you are an atheist and that you do not want them attempting to influence your children's religious beliefs until the kids are old enough to decide for themselves what they believe.  Tell them that your continued participation in the wider family (and their access to your kids) is dependent on them accepting this.

    My father "caught" Christianity when I was in my late teens - I am nearly 50 now and I have hardly had any contact with the man in almost 30 years - his continuous attempts to convert me to his belief set (I'm an atheist) played a big part in that.

    twodogsAngeline
  • spankyspanky Flying around Silver Member Posts: 2,267
    edited October 2013
    twodogs said:
    @BritGuy68 if it gets to that point I may have to.  We're a long way from there, but I could see it happening in a few years.
    seems like things are pretty toxic now, what is going to get better by dragging your feet for a "few years" before you stand up for yourself in support of your family?
    Angeline
  • RosesRoses USASilver Member Posts: 720
    twodogs said:
     If I just tell them we're no longer religious they'll all be devastated and they'll stage an intervention.  Even worse, once we don't budge they won't accept us not letting our daughter grow up in church.  They'll keep brainwashing her (they already try to read her religious books and show her religious cartoons every time they're around).  When I grew up we were taught in church how to get our friends to come to church even if their parents wouldn't take them.  I know for a fact they'll do the same.  They'll throw a fit about us not going, but they won't accept us not brining the baby.  They'll literally see it as neglect and child abuse and they'll constantly try to intervene until it comes to the point where we have to avoid contact with them.

    This is your answer right here.  This is what they believe is the right and good thing to do.  To do any less would be neglectful to downright evil.  That's their world view.

    You know this.  It is up to you to choose the best way to avoid contact, as you said.  Get a job offer you can't refuse on the other side of the world?  Tell them straight up they won't see you and baby any more?  What's easiest/best for you and your wife?  (Personally, I'd go for the job offer you can't refuse on the other side of the world because then, if they ever feel the need to leave their Church, or show they've moderated their beliefs, there are fewer hurt feelings between you and they, but that is the passive route as well.  Also, job offer you can't refuse is a nice thing to get, right?)
    Angeline
  • twodogstwodogs USASilver Member Posts: 359
    You guys aren't joking about it only getting worse.  We said no to my sister earlier in the week about going to church today.  I'm sure she told my mom about it.  Last night my parents were over to see the baby and they were asking again about church and doing their best sales job to explain how we could still go.  I basically said, "No, we're not going to bother with bringing our baby who's just a few months old to church."  They said, "Oh, but they have a little coffee shop outside and you should just bring her and sit in the coffee shop with her and watch church on TV."  I didn't say what I thought, which is that sounds completely ridiculous.  I just said no, we're not going to do that.   

    Today my sister and mom e-mailed and texted multiple times wanting to know if we changed our mind and would go.  Finally after realizing we weren't going my mom said, "Okay, but we should all go to church and then dinner together soon."  

    These people are driving me nuts.  I've pressed hard for moving but my wife is very close with her family and they live nearby and she said she couldn't leave them unless I found us each a job making at least $150k/yr (we both make about $100k/yr now so that's not too realistic).  
  • _io_io Silver Member Posts: 1,821
    You are leading them on.  You're not being honest with them about how you really think, and so they are convinced you just need to be nudged out of your inertia.  You can leave it like this, realize they're going to keep nudging, and let it roll off your back like a duck sheds water.  Or you can give it to them straight and accept whatever consequences ensue.  Only you can decide which direction you want to go.  

    If you decide to go with outwaiting them, change how you think about the pressure so it no longer angers or threatens you. 
    [Deleted User][Deleted User]frillyfunLiquidSound
  • spankyspanky Flying around Silver Member Posts: 2,267
    When do you think you'll step up and enforce your boundaries in real words with real consequences?

    They are only driving you nuts because you allow it.  *All* of this is on you and your lack of finding your voice.  Want it different?  Then do something
  • Athol_KayAthol_Kay My Underground LairPosts: 8,046
    JemStone said:
    Please don't move to run away or avoid confrontation!  That's not alpha and not helpful.  It's not MAP consistent -- the MAP is about a better you, and a better you isn't about avoiding your problems.  It's about making the best decisions possible with what you've got.  And it sounds like you've got a situation.  =)

    The MAP is a little more freeform that that.

    It's vastly easier to change you than your surrounding social group. So moving away is the path of least resistance to fixing the problem.

     One Hour Call   12-Week Guided MAP

    "The turnaround is tremendous.  And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects.  I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force.  :)  He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well."  - Scarlet

    ScarletChanged_Man
  • Adam_SAdam_S Queenslander!Silver Member Posts: 1,893
    twodogs said:
    My niece learns things in school like creationism rather than evolution...

    That this is happening in the country that brought the world the home PC, the moon landings, supersonic flight etc. etc. beggars belief IMO

    "But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love." - Bill Hicks

    twodogs
  • JemStoneJemStone UtahGold Men Posts: 252
    Athol_Kay said:
    JemStone said:
    Please don't move to run away or avoid confrontation!  That's not alpha and not helpful.  It's not MAP consistent -- the MAP is about a better you, and a better you isn't about avoiding your problems.  It's about making the best decisions possible with what you've got.  And it sounds like you've got a situation.  =)

    The MAP is a little more freeform that that.

    It's vastly easier to change you than your surrounding social group. So moving away is the path of least resistance to fixing the problem.

    Interesting.  Thanks for the clarification, I apparently have a ways to go to understand the MAP more fully.

    I suppose it's a personal choice really, and maybe I am making some bad assumptions.  From the sounds of it, @twodogs isn't being entirely honest with family about religious feelings.  I see that as being a big deal for a personal MAP, not something to be avoided.  But I suppose that depends on the relationship you want with your family, and where your priorities are.  I'm making an assumption that they want to keep a relatively good, and reasonably close, relationship with his family.  That's a big assumption.

    I guess my intent was not to say don't consider moving as an option, just to think through what using that option means, what the ramifications are.  Just because it's one of the easier solutions doesn't mean it's the best one for the situation.

    That said, it sounds like he wants to move, so I'll just be quiet.

    :))
    Go forth, and be awesome. Barring a medical issue, she will follow.  --Angeline
  • ShotcallerShotcaller Member Posts: 109
    Their attitude makes this group sound very culty.  One of the marks of a mind control group (cult) is information control, which it sounds like they are skilled at practicing with the younger one not even being allowed to watch SpongeBob (WTF?)  

    Mind if I ask what church it is?   You may want to pick up any of the books by Steve Hassan, he gives some good advice on dealing with shit like this.

    I was in a group like this and of course paid a huge price by leaving (Jehovah Witness), but at least I am now a sane person.  Basically I had no option of moving, and a spouse who still practices the religion.  It basically was a matter of putting the whole relationship on the line, either you respect who I have chosen to be, or there will not be a relationship anymore.  

    I hope it doesn't come to that in your case.  


    JellyBean
  • MongrelMongrel Pennsylvania, USASilver Member Posts: 1,869
    _io said:
    You are leading them on.  You're not being honest with them about how you really think, and so they are convinced you just need to be nudged out of your inertia.  You can leave it like this, realize they're going to keep nudging, and let it roll off your back like a duck sheds water.  Or you can give it to them straight and accept whatever consequences ensue.  Only you can decide which direction you want to go.  


    This.

    Also, about not using the term 'atheist'...my first reaction was to call bullshit on that and say you shouldn't have to lie about who you are.  Then, the smart part of my brain reminded me that I haven't come out of the closet about my atheism to my Christian in-laws because it won't accomplish anything but generate angst on their side and put my DW in the middle, so I keep my mouth shut. 'Coming Out Atheist' isn't a whole lot different than I imagine admitting you're gay is, though it probably is far easier to conceal.

    I think for @twodogs I'm back to recommending simply setting boundaries, but being rigid with enforcing them. Tell them that religion is off-limits, period. As soon as they start in, if they're on the phone say "Sorry, have to go" and hang up. Emails? Delete button. Visits? "Sorry, you broke the rule on not discussing religion, we'll have to ask you to leave until you can respect the rules of our home."  Eventually, they'll get the picture. And if they don't, you won't be communicating with them much, if at all.
    "If you're not happy with your life, you've got to identify why, and do something about it." -- Mandrill
    "Treating her like a princess didn't make me a prince, it made me a servant."
    Link to triage questions:  http://marriedmansexlife.com/triage-your-relationship-and-the-911-er-category/


    frillyfun
  • frillyfunfrillyfun East PodunkGold Women Posts: 3,386
    Exactly what Mongrel said.

    Set your boundaries, tell them ONE TIME that you won't be raising your LO in the church, and then enforce them every single time.  Don't JADE- justify, argue, defend, or explain.  Your misery this weekend was brought on by that- they'll just come up with scenarios to get their plan to "work".  

    Do not respond to emails or texts about church.  Shut down any conversations about church.  Don't let your child have alone time with them.  If it gets bad block their numbers from your phone.  If they show up at your house (lawn tantrum) don't open the door.




    JellyBeanMongrelLiquidSound
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