We can split hairs all we want on how he might not really be a coward, but SHE perceives him as such and HE makes comments such as "Are you just sick of it? Of me being scared all the time?" Both indicate that there is a problem. It does her no good to convince herself that she should be okay with this.
We can split hairs all we want on how he might not really be a coward, but SHE perceives him as such and HE makes comments such as "Are you just sick of it? Of me being scared all the time?" Both indicate that there is a problem. It does her no good to convince herself that she should be okay with this.
Completely agree.
Just encouraging @anonymous to reflect on her expectations so if she does move on, she can look for someone suited to her.
Apparently being on cough medicine with phenegran in it has caused me to not make my point in this thread clear at all.
Lots of discussion about therapy, drugs, etc, Sounds to me like perhaps he just grew up without strong male role models in his life. I would suggest a more traditional approach to help him man-up would be for him to get some male friends that are role models and mentors. If he does not already have such friends, it may take a while to get in with some groups and build some trust and bonding. Maybe something like organized sports, or some other club or group of men that meets on a regular basis does something masculine. Think team sports. Start with something physical but mostly safe like a softball or basketball league before you send him off to shooting sports, mma, and car racing. Maybe some classes involving power tools like wood shop, welding, car restoration.
Key is to send him off to do these things with his male friends and without you. There is some shit that boys growing up can only really learn from strong male role models. Sometimes those role models are older siblings and friends. Sometimes they are fathers and other adult males in their life. In any case, there is a lot of stuff that only gets talked about and only goes down when their moms and wives are not around.
Here’s the reason why I don’t think it’s a mental disorder: before we were officially dating and he was trying to convince me to date him he wasn’t afraid of anything. Later, after we were dating and he was being a pussy I asked him why he never used to be afraid of things. He said he was terrified the whole time but he knew I wouldn’t date him if he was being a wimp and so he acted like he wasn’t afraid. Male version of bait-and-switch? I asked him how he would feel if I just decided that since we were officially in a relationship I didn’t care to stay in shape anymore/would cut my hair/whatever. He said, “I don’t care if you gain weight I’ll still love you”. How was I supposed to compete with that statement?
Also, as for breaking up with him because of this (without giving him opportunity to fix it) I think it would be morally wrong. Although we are not married and have only been dating 3 years, we have been best friends for six years and friends for ten. He has been there for me and I have been there for him through the good and bad. He talks about getting married all the time and since we are both poor still in grad school I don’t think he’s just blowing hot air. Unless he cheated, killed someone, etc, I would not just break up with him without sufficient warning and opportunity for improvement.
I have a very different take on this than everyone else so far.
I don't think the issue is that he is afraid, I think the issue is that you aren't afraid. You are a risk taker dating a non-risk taker.
I think you're bored and that's what is drying up your attraction.
Yes it's true I am definitely more of a risk taker but we balance eachother out well with that. He makes sure we don't die and I make sure we aren't just sitting cooped up in the house all day.
1. He is afraid to go past his knees in the ocean,
~why does this matter? Do you regularly visit the ocean and do you swim in it? 2. to sit outside when he can even hear thunder,
~why does this matter? If it's going to storm, why would one want to sit outside?
3. of most animals including pet dogs,
~do you have pets that he refuses to be around?
4. of scary movies,
~you could go with other people to see them
5. of going within 15 feet of the woods if it's dark,
~do you like to camp? I'm trying to figure out what you are really missing out on if he doesn't like the woods at night.
6. of upside down roller coasters,
~why does this matter? It doesn't stop you from riding one.
7. of having his window even cracked open at night for fear of robbers (we live in a safe area),
~again, why does this matter??
So, you need to decide if you are ok living life with a non-adventurous guy or if you need adventure / thrill / risk to be happy. It's ok if you do, but own that aspect of yourself and make sure you seek out a kindred spirit in your next relationship.
I see your point...my issue isn't his actually doing these things though; it's the fact that I can't look at a man who cowers at the thought of a dog/going over his knees in the ocean/ going on an amusement ride and feel protected or turned on by his masculinity. If it were just one or two specific things it wouldn't bother me, it's just his whole cowardly attitude in general that turns me off. In other words, it's not that I care if he goes in the woods at night, I can deal without camping. Its the fact that he just won't man up and face his fear. When he acts like a coward I feel like I have to be the captain and protector, not him. That is what turns me off.
By the way, the old adage about 'facing your fears' can actually work; however it has to be done at the pace that the person can control. Shaming him into manning up won't work. It's not about whether it's right, wrong, mean, kind, tough love or whatever... it just won't work.
But most importantly for change to occur something else has to happen. He has to agree that he has a problem and he has to decide to fix it. That's square one.
@anonymous, so there was a sudden major shift in his behaviour early in your relationship and a deception on a massive scale at its heart... and you're convinced it isn't mental illness??
Also, on the one had you think it was morally wrong for him to deceive you - a bait and switch - and yet it would also be morally wrong of you to walk away. Even though you are angry, offended, and unattracted - to the point that you "can't look at him"? Are you sure your relationship will recover from this feeling, and you won't just quietly carry it around until it gnaws at your relationship like a cancer?
As to this statement: “I don’t care if you gain weight I’ll still love you”. You and I both know that that is passive, Nice Guy rubbish that is a part of the same attitude that is turning you off. A man who rally doesn't care about your weight, appearance, and hygiene is either a liar, or has such low self-esteem that he thinks you're the only one who will have him. So either he is a liar, a white knight, or codependent.
All men are great men, most fail to see the greatness in themselves.
@anonymous A pattern I've noticed in women is that when we are younger and not yet married, a lack of alpha doesn't bother us nearly as much as it does later on in the relationship.
Once we marry and especially once we have children, we need a lot more strength and leadership from our husbands.
The concern I have for you is that if you are this dissatisfied with his lack of strength now, it is going to be 1000 times worse if you marry and have children with him.
I also think from his perspective that he will make much more progress with his Map if he's not with you. This seems counter-productive, but take a look at @frustratedboyfriend 's threads.
As long as he is Mapping *for you* and to keep you happy, he will not be successful. I think you need to point him to the Primer, the Mindful Attraction Plan and the forum, and possibly take a hiatus from dating him so that he can have the space to run his Map.
After 6 months to a year, the two of you can re-visit the issue and see what you think.
You're both pretty young. Most people haven't figured it all out at your ages. However, this clearly bothers him. It impacts the way he sees himself. My guess is he'd like to change it.
That would involve: (1) some guidance from a strong male presence in his life and doing 'guys' stuff, (2) possibily some counseling and reading, (3) IF it is an anxiety disorder more therapy and possibily medication. A martial art would help. It will also take TIME.
Notice I haven't mentioned what you could do to change him - probably not much, especially if this is an anxiety issue.
You can show him this thread. Or buy him the Primer. And let him know he's hardly the only one like this. He doesn't need to go through life afraid or anxious. Lots of us have transformed our lives. It's really a much better life not to be afraid of dumb stuff - there's enough real scary stuff to deal with.
I'm a natural acrophobe. Get the willies just standing on the top rung of a ladder. It's relatively mild, but real.
I never had any therapy, never took any medication, just decided that I didn't like being afraid of it and made a conscious decision to get over it. Desensitized myself to my fear by forcing myself into situations where I'd have to confront. Convinced myself that I didn't mind the sensations I associated with it, that the fear was exciting and fun.
I'm pretty much over it now. Have no problem with rollercoasters, what have you.
I'm not telling you this to say that he needs to "just man up and get over it." Like I said, my problem was relatively mild, mild enough that I could take care of it myself without therapy or meds or any formal "treatment." If his problem is more severe, he might need more help than I needed and there's no shame in that.
I'm just telling you this to point out that these are problems that can be overcome, but to do so he needs to make the decision to do so and start looking for solutions in a systematic way. You can't do that for him, but you can let him know that these are real, potentially relationship-breaking issues.
He said he was terrified the whole time but he knew I wouldn’t date him if he was being a wimp and so he acted like he wasn’t afraid. Male version of bait-and-switch?
Yes.
I asked him how he would feel if I just decided that since we were officially in a relationship I didn’t care to stay in shape anymore/would cut my hair/whatever. He said, “I don’t care if you gain weight I’ll still love you”. How was I supposed to compete with that statement?
You're supposed to tell him that you'll still love him if he's a coward, but you won't be attracted to him, and you can't be in a sexual relationship with someone you're not attracted to, and that he wouldn't want to be in a sexual relationship with someone who's not attracted to him.
---
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
I've forced myself to ride amusement rides that terrified me to impress dates; but what you can do a few times is not something you can do constantly. He needs to work through these phobias (and be checked to see if there is a deeper problem). You need to tell him 1) I love you; 2) I'm not attracted to you; 3) get to a doctor to lean how to deal with it.
I was afraid of strange dogs when I was young (bit when a baby) and have worked through that. Heights I had worked through, but need to refresh since I have been having problems with some bridges.
These are largely curably (I not sure I could ever handle upside down roller coasters)
I think the "we need a break so you can fix yourself" is the best course of action. He needs professional help, along with a copy of the primer & mindful attraction plan. seriously, these books blow a guys mind and give him tools to fix the problem.
Comments
Just encouraging @anonymous to reflect on her expectations so if she does move on, she can look for someone suited to her.
Apparently being on cough medicine with phenegran in it has caused me to not make my point in this thread clear at all.
Lots of discussion about therapy, drugs, etc, Sounds to me like perhaps he just grew up without strong male role models in his life. I would suggest a more traditional approach to help him man-up would be for him to get some male friends that are role models and mentors. If he does not already have such friends, it may take a while to get in with some groups and build some trust and bonding. Maybe something like organized sports, or some other club or group of men that meets on a regular basis does something masculine. Think team sports. Start with something physical but mostly safe like a softball or basketball league before you send him off to shooting sports, mma, and car racing. Maybe some classes involving power tools like wood shop, welding, car restoration.
Key is to send him off to do these things with his male friends and without you. There is some shit that boys growing up can only really learn from strong male role models. Sometimes those role models are older siblings and friends. Sometimes they are fathers and other adult males in their life. In any case, there is a lot of stuff that only gets talked about and only goes down when their moms and wives are not around.
Thank you all for your kind advice!
Here’s the reason why I don’t think it’s a mental disorder: before we were officially dating and he was trying to convince me to date him he wasn’t afraid of anything. Later, after we were dating and he was being a pussy I asked him why he never used to be afraid of things. He said he was terrified the whole time but he knew I wouldn’t date him if he was being a wimp and so he acted like he wasn’t afraid. Male version of bait-and-switch? I asked him how he would feel if I just decided that since we were officially in a relationship I didn’t care to stay in shape anymore/would cut my hair/whatever. He said, “I don’t care if you gain weight I’ll still love you”. How was I supposed to compete with that statement?
Also, as for breaking up with him because of this (without giving him opportunity to fix it) I think it would be morally wrong. Although we are not married and have only been dating 3 years, we have been best friends for six years and friends for ten. He has been there for me and I have been there for him through the good and bad. He talks about getting married all the time and since we are both poor still in grad school I don’t think he’s just blowing hot air. Unless he cheated, killed someone, etc, I would not just break up with him without sufficient warning and opportunity for improvement.
But most importantly for change to occur something else has to happen. He has to agree that he has a problem and he has to decide to fix it. That's square one.
Also, on the one had you think it was morally wrong for him to deceive you - a bait and switch - and yet it would also be morally wrong of you to walk away. Even though you are angry, offended, and unattracted - to the point that you "can't look at him"? Are you sure your relationship will recover from this feeling, and you won't just quietly carry it around until it gnaws at your relationship like a cancer?
As to this statement: “I don’t care if you gain weight I’ll still love you”. You and I both know that that is passive, Nice Guy rubbish that is a part of the same attitude that is turning you off. A man who rally doesn't care about your weight, appearance, and hygiene is either a liar, or has such low self-esteem that he thinks you're the only one who will have him. So either he is a liar, a white knight, or codependent.
All men are great men, most fail to see the greatness in themselves.
Power, Passion, Principle and Purpose: The Wild Man Project
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That would involve: (1) some guidance from a strong male presence in his life and doing 'guys' stuff, (2) possibily some counseling and reading, (3) IF it is an anxiety disorder more therapy and possibily medication. A martial art would help. It will also take TIME.
Notice I haven't mentioned what you could do to change him - probably not much, especially if this is an anxiety issue.
You can show him this thread. Or buy him the Primer. And let him know he's hardly the only one like this. He doesn't need to go through life afraid or anxious. Lots of us have transformed our lives. It's really a much better life not to be afraid of dumb stuff - there's enough real scary stuff to deal with.
You're supposed to tell him that you'll still love him if he's a coward, but you won't be attracted to him, and you can't be in a sexual relationship with someone you're not attracted to, and that he wouldn't want to be in a sexual relationship with someone who's not attracted to him.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
I've forced myself to ride amusement rides that terrified me to impress dates; but what you can do a few times is not something you can do constantly. He needs to work through these phobias (and be checked to see if there is a deeper problem). You need to tell him 1) I love you; 2) I'm not attracted to you; 3) get to a doctor to lean how to deal with it.
I was afraid of strange dogs when I was young (bit when a baby) and have worked through that. Heights I had worked through, but need to refresh since I have been having problems with some bridges.
These are largely curably (I not sure I could ever handle upside down roller coasters)