GUILT TRIPS!!

Hamster_Free

OK, so here's the sitch..

My fault: I had to get the kid's backpack out of DH's truck this morning to empty out and reset for the day today, and when I did, the truck door didn't close properly, so the cabin light stayed on for two hours, so by the time he was ready to take the kids to school, the battery was dead.  Big oops.  Mea culpa.  I didn't realize, and went on to work.  It's his day off, his day to take the kids to school (this is a shared responsibility, not his or mine exclusively).

His fault: A), he didn't bring in the backpack (or ensure that the child minds his own things and brings his own backpack, which is kind of the point of even having a backpack at this stage for this kid).  For two days.

 He didn't get up in time to get the kids to school on time--he called me in a panic 2 minutes before the start of school--first to ask where the kids shoes were (by the backpacks by the door, where they belong).  Called back a minute later to ask why he carries a backpack (see rationale above--it's a school mandated thing and works well as evidenced with my older kid).  Called back a minute later to freak about the truck. It's about a 20 minute drive to school with no traffic.  He *started* calling me at 2 minutes till.

C) He didn't fix the kids breakfast (I was at work by this time and had to leave work to come home, get the kids, find out on the way out of the neighborhood that they haven't eaten, so hello, McDonald's oatmeal..).

When I got there to pick the kids up, I apologized up front, and asked what I could do to help.  He waved me off saying he was looking up the right way to do this so he doesn't fry his system, and when I apologized, said "Yeah, I'm still pissed".  Not, it's ok, thanks for coming to get em, not even light razzing about the stupidity of not ensuring that the door wasn't closed all the way (which I would have earned).  Just giving the clear impression that him standing in his driveway at 15 minutes after when the kids are supposed to be at school is entirely my fault.

for fuck's sake.  If one of my kids had given me that after I apologized to them, they would be in the corner for insolence, but I can't do that to my husband.

I mean, I know all the gents here love to rail on about the shit tests.  What about other way round?  I was at work and had to come home.  He should have left at least 1/2 hour, maybe more before.  Honestly, he typically leaves about an hour before, as do I when I drop them off, so they have some free play time with their friends before school starts (hint--not public school) and have gotten some wiggles out so they focus better on school.  If he had left *when he/we usually does/do*, hell, the battery might not have even been totally dead.  And I'm kinda wondering about the condition of his battery if it wears down in two hours of dome light usage.  But that's my hamster kicking in, I'm sure.

All's I know is--there's blame all around.  Why does he put it on my shoulders?

This is a common thing with him.  Something goes wrong, he gets really angry (just loud, not violent), and it's immediately anybody else's fault, usually mine.  And he grinds it into the kids when they screw up too..pointing out the fuckup and the accountability is one thing.  Guilting the shit out of somebody for doing something (anything) wrong is completely another and it drives me up the wall.  I've tried pointing it out to him--

"Hey, I bet your mom used to guilt the shit out of you when you screwed up when you were a kid." 

"She sure did." 

"I bet you really didn't like it." 

"No, I fucking hated it." 

"I bet your kids don't like it either."

I'm largely venting here, but if anyone has any ideas how I can counter this behavior, I would LOVE it.

Hamster_Free

K, I's probably framing this incident as vent for my frustration about the guilting--which he does a lot. 

 And not getting himself going in time to see that family obligations are met is also a recurring theme.  He's been better lately, but it's not uncharacteristic. 

Re: the backpack--OK, I's probably looking for other little shit sticks to throw on the fire.  Fair enough.  (Bad Hamster!).

Is there any red pill ladylike way to smack down the guilt, though?  Seriously.  This time it's that. 

If we're late for church, it's my fault that everyone wasn't ready, even though I'm dressing me and two kids, he's just dressing himself. Long story, but the kids and I have basically started going to church without him which eases the guilt trips, but...he's the devout one in the family and we're going because HE wanted his kids raised up that way...

If the grocery bill is too high, it's the one or two things that I put in that put us over the top, never the stuff he elects to include (which is usually more).  I've changed the grocery shopping to avoid that particular land mine--I now shop *alone* for me n the kids and family dinners on a weekly basis--he's on his own for his own work food.

When he was having a crappy time at his last assignment, THAT was my fault for 'making' us go there (while we can put in our preferences, the military tells us where to go)..he had a first pick for somewhere else, but where we went was an acceptable alternative for him.

Not getting the vehicle he wants, not planning to retire in the happy place of his youth, not getting whatever flash in the pan exciting (and invariably expensive) toy he wants this year--those are all my fault.  And yes, he does harbor long term guilt grudges over each of these things as they have been brought up repeatedly over the years.

Is it really only avoided through case by case problem solving, or is there a way to smack that shit down? 

I don't want to blame each other over stupid little shit.  I'd like to run missteps as a --hey, we didn't do that well.  Let's not do that again.--kind of scenario and move on, but he tosses on the blame, which gets me first into a--Fuck!  I really screwed that up!--cycle and then into --but wait, I'm not the only guilty one, He screwed up too!--rotation.  And then we wind up assigning blame and working apart instead of together.

*sigh* perhaps it's just one of those things in which I can only seek to work on myself and not fall into the guilt traps...but it still lights me up when I see him doing it to the kids, setting them up for a follow on generation of guilting.  He and his brother still do it to each other and it is UTTERLY crazymaking.

fredless

When an individual cannot accept any blame/responsibility, this if often an indication of deficits in self-esteem.  Is your husband running a MAP?

NeoTheLeo

I would say those are all separate issues but as far as the dead battery, that's your fault 100%. No big deal and it happens to everyone, but still its your fault. And yes, a perfect battery could run down and need a jump after dome light is on for two hours. All the other stuff about backpacks and time he got up, are separate issues and do not relate to battery being dead.

Just giving you my honest two cents.   

Hamster_Free

Great stuff, MissusP.  This is the first school year for both kids, and the little guy is in pre-school--I know that I myself am adjusting out of the full effort management phase of kids.  --Gotta retrain myself!

@fredless, no, he's not running a MAP.  Bought him the book, read it myself, implemented my own LAP (Lady's Action Plan), and I keep dropping helpful tidbits of info here and there--which he likes and seems to gobble up--cause let's face it, MMSL is all about getting a dude laid, right?  What's not to love?

And you're right, @MissusP--the most beneficial changes that have occurred have been because I dropped the ball and let him pick it up.  The one place I have a hard time doing that, though, is my kids.  It makes me spit some nails if they don't make it to school because DH couldn't get out of bed on time.  It'll get easier, as the kids get older and more self-reliant, but we're very early on that path. 

With the vehicles, it's usually getting an additional vehicle that we don't need, and when I was SAHM, represented a signficant additional burden on our finances.  He asked me if he could get a pretty little roadster--and I agree it's pretty--but it's a two seater, utterly impractical, and with one income, didn't have the finances for it.  Then it was motorcycles to save on gas for a long commute--TWO motorcycles, mind you.  Yes, the loan payments and insurance far outweighed any benefit in gas money.  We hit financial rocks, and I told him he needed to sell them since it wasn't possible for him to increase his income to cover what they were draining from our budget.  Then a jet ski.  A boat. An airplane (OK, he had the airplane, but sold it because he thought he couldn't transfer to a new duty station with it, so that's the military's fault, not mine).  And if I ever pushed back, I'd get some flack for always "shutting down what he wants" is the direct quote.

Every now and then I still hear about how he'll never have a [pretty little roadster] or how he misses his motorcyclesthatmyharpywifemademesell.  *sigh*

So now I've got a job, and am not dependent on his income for the food in my babes' mouths, and yes, he's gone out and gotten another vehicle.  But he bought it, free and clear, and how he's insuring it is his business, so I'm blissfully ignorant.  I worry, though, when he gets an itch to take on another vehicle that DOES require payments.  If it upsets the finances enough to where he's unable to pull his side of the household, when does it become irresponsible of me not to yank him up by the collar and tell him to fix it?

And if I 'let him see that he's the boss', which is a concept I generally support, there are aspects, such as where we'll go *next* (he picked this duty station..I didn't argue on it at all--good place, so yay for me, but still..)--where I'm kind of afraid of losing all authority.

Hamster_Free

So, @NeotheLeo, if your wife did that, accepted responsibility and apologized and offered to help, how would you react?

Joskin_Nodd

@Hamster_Free: "All's I know is--there's blame all around.  Why does he put it on my shoulders?"

Because you let him? What we call The Hamster™ is just a reactive tool for rationalizing and articulating desires and frustrations and emotions experienced at the limbic level. Oft times, these emotions are greedy or needy or mistrusting and the power to turn them into vociferous rationalizations don't serve us. At other times, it can give voice to legitimate issues and apply the point with a sledgehammer, or allow you to fight Hamster Logic with Hamster Logic. 

A good way to start is genuinely own whatever you did wrong, maybe even over-own it (rather than minimize it), and then lay into him on being late, which is the fundamental problem. Guys do not remember where given twigs go in the nest, at least not quickly, and it's not nearly as natural and intuitive as it is to the person who decided where the shoes go. So him calling you about that is natural, if irritating.

But any guy can understand that you don't wait to the last minute to get ready to go somewhere, because then there's no time to spare if something goes wrong or you can't find something. That's a strategic flaw he should own and needs to address. Of course he doesn't want to, who wants to? But a reasonable answer to "Yeah, I'm still pissed" is "And I'm pissed that you waited until the last damn minute to leave. Should we fight and then seethe about it for hours or days, or should we both try and get better about this sort of stuff?" 

A Captain is responsible for his ship. Also, I keep a plug in battery charger for just such circumstances. Shouldn't take more than 10 minutes (probably less, just don't turn the engine off) to get it to the point where you can start the car. 

Promise that you'll check to make sure the dome light is off and the doors are closed in the future (and do so), if he'll promise to get out of the house early and make the kids some damned breakfast. 

I'm not unsympathetic. I've fallen short in the ways you describe your husband doing (not so much recently, although I will still forget the "new" (that is, different that it was four years ago) place the shoes go, but I'm 100% responsible. But I recognize the desire to shrug that responsibility and find someone else to blame. It's 100% natural, but it's not mature. It's adolescent in nature, and grown men need to move past it, into their Captaincy. 

Also, I imagine his guilt in his clearly pathetic performance is informing is anger and blame-shifting. Getting in touch with those kind of impulses is very personal work, and it's tough to make someone do it. 

But it's worthwhile for everyone to keep in mind (DH most especially) . . . such behavior is not attractive.  

Hamster_Free

And you'll notice the topic header is--"GUILT TRIPS!!"  Not, "DH wasted time and was late taking the kids to school and took it out on me because I let the battery go dead".

NeoTheLeo

I may say, I was still pissed if I was still dealing with the the issue of the dead battery because I most likely would be still pissed, but I wouldn't be ugly. In fact, after I said I was still pissed, I most likely wouldn't mention it again. Move on to other things. 

Now if she wanted to talk about back packs being ready and time best to leave etc, I would be willing to sit down and discuss all those issues as well but they have no connection to the battery being dead.  

Joskin_Nodd

@Hamster_Free: "And you'll notice the topic header is--"GUILT TRIPS!!"  Not, "DH wasted time and was late taking the kids to school and took it out on me because I let the battery go dead"."

How do you react to the guilt trips? What different could you do? Do you always call them out?

"Guilt tripping me? Really? What are we, fourteen?"

"Very good. Blame assigned. Yay! It's all my fault. Again. Now, can we move on to the solutions, or do we have to wallow in blame finding for a while longer? Because, you know, it's so productive." Sweet smile. Sincere.

"Right before you started, I was thinking about how I wanted to get on my knees and suck your cock. Now I totally don't. Thanks for nipping that in the bud for me, a sloppy, noisy blowjob would have been a huge waste of time this morning."

"So you're saying it's your fault." - "No, I'm saying it's your fault." - "I'm glad you can admit your part in this."- "I'm not admitting anything!" - "It's okay, sweety. I forgive you."

"I think guilt has been established. Let's stop wallowing in it and move on to punishment, okay? How do you want to punish me."

Guilt-tripping the kids is trickier. Finding ways to address that without undermining him will be . . . problematic.

Hamster_Free

@Joskin_Nodd, LOVE it.  Your reputation of pithy comebacks rightly preceeds you.  @NeotheLeo, also reasonable.

My current response is to just let it drop when the guilt cannon fires, but you're right, I think calling them out for the absurdities that they are might serve to at least let him recognize what he's doing--hopefully with the end result that if his nose is slapped with a newspaper enough when he does it to me, he'll not do it to the kids?  It's worth a try, anyway.

Joskin_Nodd

@Hamster_Free: "hopefully with the end result that if his nose is slapped with a newspaper enough when he does it to me, he'll not do it to the kids?"

You can hope but don't expect that will naturally follow. But first, stop letting him do it to you. 

You may mention that guilt tripping the kids aren't great for his relationship with them, long term, and he might want to think about that. Kids are resilient, and will get past the guilt tripping, but one of the tools of doing that is to feel less connected to the guilt tripping parent, and to value them less and less in their lives. 

Dido

@Hamster_Free: when the steam is coming out of your ears your American accent is sooo cute.

Hamster_Free

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Im_a_Man

NeoTheLeo said:

I would say those are all separate issues but as far as the dead battery, that's your fault 100%. No big deal and it happens to everyone, but still its your fault. And yes, a perfect battery could run down and need a jump after dome light is on for two hours. All the other stuff about backpacks and time he got up, are separate issues and do not relate to battery being dead.

Just giving you my honest two cents.   

No it is not her fault 100% - any car battery in good condition can have the interior lights on for 2 hrs no problem. This was a simple mistake. The battery is old and would not last through the winter (if you get winter). If your husband maintains the car he needs to get the battery fixed.

NeoTheLeo

Hamster_Free said:

@Joskin_Nodd, LOVE it.  Your reputation of pithy comebacks rightly preceeds you.  @NeotheLeo, also reasonable.

I think calling them out for the absurdities that they are might serve to at least let him recognize what he's doing

I think you may be right. Even though I understood your husband saying that at the time and could see myself saying it, after reading Joskin_Nodd's responses, I felt like a total asshole. lol

So, yes that would have worked on me and made me feel like a total dumbass for saying I was still pissed. Afterall, its just a dead battery.   

Joskin_Nodd

Meant to say that, @Im_a_Man. A car battery should power a dome light, in most cases, for two hours without draining the battery (fortunately, modern vehicles just turn the damn thing off after ten minutes). But I would take that as an indication the car needs a new battery. 

Hamster_Free

In re-reading, I realize that I wasn't clear about coming home--he asked if there was anything wrong with the truck, and I explained that I'd gotten the backpack out and meant to lock it back up, but forgot on my way out the door.  He told me the battery was dead then, and at that point, realizing that was my mistake, I offered to come home and take the kids, and he said that'd be a good idea--he didn't tell me to come home. 

Of course, by the time I got there, he was in mid piss-fit. 

He'd hooked up his other car to the truck, which is where he was when he said that he was trying to do it right so as not to fry the system (read: so I can unfuck your error, woman).

It now occurs to me that if he could move the other car enough to hook up jumper cables, he prolly coulda piled the kids in the car and been on his merry way....but it's much more fun to deflect a failed morning onto the stupid girl who killed your truck.  Yes, I know what trucks mean to men, and I really do try to touch it as little as possible just in case something like this might happen.  The only dent on it was *his* doing (I can't tell you how relieved I am about that every time I see it).

Joskin_Nodd

@Hamster_Free: "He'd hooked up his other car to the truck, which is where he was when he said that he was trying to do it right so as not to fry the system"

Fry the system? Does one of the vehicles have a weird battery system, or is a hybrid? 

Hamster_Free

There's SO much less pressure now that we have dual incomes.  ALL our accounts are separate--our checking accounts are linked, but we can't just go in and take anything out of the others--unless we log in as the account's owner.  We both know how to do that, but haven't out of respect for each other. 

The spreadsheets et al are pretty much how I talked him out of the motorcycles...he couldn't argue with the numbers once they were in front of him.  Long term goals are harder to tackle....we definitely need to get better about talking (I've got a few other threads on that issue alone). 

For now, with the accounts separate, it's pretty clear that he has no one to blame but himself for any financial transgressions.  He pays the house bills, I pay the kid bills (daycare, etc), and we both pay our own car bills.  The house bills have been dropped once or twice, and all it took was a frantic call from his poor, defenseless wife and mother of his two defenseless small children about the toilets that wouldn't flush and no water in the house for that to get straightened out.  :^)

And thank you, gents, for confirming that I'm not nuts to think 2hrs dome light usage is not enough to kill a decent battery.

Hamster_Free

@Joskin_Nodd, no, LOL, it's a vintage bug and a standard issue chevy truck. I've done it enough times on my own that I was about to hook it up for him, but his general demeanor led me to think that being shown up by the woman who killed his truck was probably not a wise move at that moment.  )