New to this - Triage

Tiger

texascfguy said:

She’s not big on giving BJ’s no surprise there. She’s not completely opposed to it and does it on occasion but it’s not her favorite thing to do and I usually have to beg.

Don't beg, that's a Display of Low Value (DLV).  Request, state you expectations, put your dick in her mouth, but never beg.  She can certainly say no, but you also should understand that there is nothing wrong with your desires in this area.

If you want her to enjoy sucking your dick then you need to teach her how to enjoy it. What are you doing when she's down there?  Are you touching her, running your fingers through her hair, are you letting her know how much she is pleasuring you? Are you making noises so she knows how much what she is doing is turning you on?  She loves you, she WANTS to make you happy, show her through your words and actions that this is a way that she can do that.  The more she does this the less weird or icky it will be, and the more she will associate this with a happy husband.

TheEdge

@growingafamily Not to be too nosy, but do you guys totally abstain from sexual touch during the entire pre- and three day post-ovulation?  And then have sex 12-15 times in the remaining time?  I'm curious, as that seems interesting.  I've never actually talked about the actual sexual practices of our many friends who have used or still do use NFP.

@texascfguy It sounds like your wife isn't opposed to anything-but-PIV during ovulation times.  As I mentioned, I think that's pretty typical among Catholics who are actually attempting NFP.  If neither of you is opposed, I'd say you should totally go for that during the time.  Reading through your posts, it sounds like this problem is all on you and (a) turning to other outlets, and (b) having poor initiation skills.  Both totally fixable.  I know the motto around here is "shut the f*ck up" and don't talk about sex, but it seems like having a talk about the issue, with you taking leadership, might really help do the trick.  Any young relatively newlyweds that go 2-3 months without sex have some serious problem.  In your case, it's not too late to really start a new "trend" in the marriage. 

texascfguy

@theedge I couldn't agree more. I think almost all of it is coming down to me. No surprise there. This site has really opened my eyes to what is really going on. I thought my wife not coming on to me was her lack of desire to have sex and that my lack of desire was a result of that. But that's obviously not the case. I've been going through and reading a lot of the threads over the last few days and there is a lot of good info here. I also picked up the MAP book and started reading that as well. Our dry spells are a definitely result of my porn usage and lack of trying on my part. You also correct in that during her ovulation time she is not opposed to all sexual contact just PIV. Again a result of me looking at things the wrong way.

texascfguy

@tiger

Thanks for the advice. Just wondering though is there a time and a place for me to bring these things up to her? How should I go about doing that?

growingafamily

@TheEdge yep no sexual contact, we follow the rules to a T on this, we're both pretty hardcore practicing Catholic. As for the 12-15, I mean, we clock 3-5x just in the first day in the post-ovulation phase, normally. 2-3x on the second day.. we use bleeding days (which so many people here seem adverse to) and every other day in phase I.  I realize we're not the norm for NFP users (not that I talk openly with my IRL friends about this, but we're in a support group online). I'm just saying it's possible

texascfguy

Wow that sounds great @growingafamily. Has NFP ever failed you guys since you have sex all the time and even during your period? I doubt I could get my wife to agree to sex during shark week. Although I guess I don't know cause I've never asked but I'm betting she'd probably shoot it down.

growingafamily

It's never failed us when we're actually following the rules  I have no method-failure babies but do have a user-failure baby. We did jump right into having babies, and lots of them, right away, so probably look to an outsider like someone who it fails left and right for, but this last one is the only one I've ever felt like, yeah, maybe I could be done now.. so at this point we're looking at indefinite use. Very careful indefinite use. I'm only 2 cycles out since my last birth/return to fertility, but 2 successful cycles with intercourse as frequent as stated previously.

 I have long cycles so period days are safe for me; they aren't considered safe for anyone who ever has shorter cycles as you can't determine cervical fluid too well at that point. I'm kind of insistent it has to be in the shower, until later days when the flow is lighter. As this is a bit of a hassle, it usually amounts to maybe twice in that week.

TheEdge

@texascfguy ; It's your call as to when the "right time" is to bring it up.  A good rule, though, is to NOT bring it up (a) after getting turned down, and (b) during an argument.  Also, in case you haven't caught on, it's almost always best to NEVER, EVER tell her about MMSLP and its contents.  Live it, demonstrate it, don't explain it.

What's worked well for me before for such conversations is at a cool bar over a beer or two, on a night that you can actually "do something" about it.  Definitely aim for peak ovulation day and give her some really good oral that night.  Don't worry about your little BJTC.   

Also, if you guys are just doing the "rhythm method" (ie counting days), you need to take a little bit of time to actually learn a more effective natural approach -- either with cervical mucous alone (I think that's called the "Creighton" model) or with mucous and temperature (typically called the sympto-thermal method).  We used the mucous alone. 

mixnmatch

Porn use for me is just a form of masturbation.  I know there is all this research out there that says this or that but the problem with masturbation is that you will end up tolerating a sexless marriage because porn is an outlet for sexual release.  I'm on the extremely HD side so regardless if I masturbate I still want the real thing minutes after.  However, masturbation did allow me to tolerate a sexless marriage for years instead of doing something about it.  In your case, you wouldn't stand for zero sex for a month if porn wasn't providing the release.

Also, since you are thinking of having children why not use the withdrawal method.  My wife and I used that method for years because be weren't opposed to kids but not planning kids either.  We never had a scare and didn't get pregnant until we tried for children.  I know there are risks but if you are thinking of having a family in a year it might work for you as it did for us and hopefully longer for you.  

Our choice wasn't religious just a choice to not take birth control or wear something.

Eightbit

I guess that explains the five kids in seven years?

Tiger

I guess my advice on how to bring this up is to not try to solve it, find some time when she is in a receptive place willing to listen and simply state that you want to change your current default sexual limitations because they are not working well for you.  Not that you demand that they change, not that you expect them to change, simply a clear statement of what you want.  She may be receptive, she may be resistant, she may be uncomfortable, those are all possibilities and valid responses, don't try to "fix" it, just accept her response.

If you goes off an a tirade, don't engage, listen and then something like: "You've given me a lot to think about." then go off and do something manly.  You can also use "We both have things to think about." in this case.

Two important steps here:

1) Start working your MAP, this is first and foremost.  You have a lot you can do by yourself to make things better, she may well just respond to the changed you.

2) If you feel that you need to talk about it, a simple statement of what you want is the place to start.

Those statements of what you want are really starting to see your own value, and the validity of your wants and desires.  You cannot expect her to meet your needs if she does not know what they are. Communicating your needs and wants in clear non confrontational ways is an important part of a MAP.  But you may find you need to get to a level of confidence in yourself before you can do that.

texascfguy

So I tried initiating sex last night as it has been about a week now since my last release. Came home after the gym and she was taking an online test for school. She said it was gonna be an hour or so. I gave her a 10 second kiss and told her to hurry up implying that sex was happening tonight. I took a shower and ate then was watching some tv when she finished she came over to the couch and wrapped herself in a blanket. I asked her if she was ready and she gave me the I'm tired/it's cold response. So I went over lifted her off the couch and took her to the bedroom. She immediately started trying to weasel out of it. Saying that she was still fertile and that she didn't want to get pregnant. I tried the I'll pull out line and she wasn't having any of that. Then reminded her that we had sex just last weekend right after her period ended. She then told me that she wouldn't do anything until I got her phone and brought it to her so she could check her fertility app. I told her I would get it if she promised that it wouldn't change anything that we were still going to have sex that night. So I went and got the phone and she checked that app and of course she found that she was still fertile. Then came the I can't get pregnant right now I don't wanna loose my job crap. I get where she's coming from I'm not totally non-empathetic to the situation but I think she's blowing it out of proportion. She's bilingual, has a masters in education and we live in the largest city in south Texas. So in my opinion she's easily employable. By this time I'd lost all drive and decided to cut my losses. I got up and said fine, let me know when your ready and I went to watch tv before bed. Not sure if that was the best thing to do I could tell she was upset about shooting me down but at the same time I tired not to show any emotion about it and just tired to be up beat and positive. Inside I wasn't too happy though. I now I'm new to all this and need to be patient but it's still frustrating.

I'm not sure how to handle this whole waiting to have kids deal. She seems to go back and forth on it. Sometimes she firm about waiting and other times she's not. Like last weekend right after her period ended she didn't seem to have any issue at all with having sex. She seems to change her mind with the wind.

Tiger

There are plenty of ways to be sexual that don't involve PiV, why not explore some of those?

Rubbing one out on her stomach might well have been enjoyable for both of you.

One caveat, if you go down this path and agree that you are going to play without intercourse you MUST hold firm to that, even if she begs you to fuck her half way through, you cannot have unprotected sex, or next time she will not be comfortable having the encounter that might lead to intercourse.  If she knows that she can trust you to keep her honest to her values then she will be more willing to play and experiment.  It could be she also does not trust her ability to have self control in the moment.

texascfguy

@Tiger

That definitely makes sense. Could I have done something differently to initiate without the sex? Should I just do the same thing and let her know that we are gonna have play time but no sex because she's fertile? 

growingafamily

If her period just ended (the last time) she probably wasn't fertile, that has little to do with wanting a baby. You have to have really short cycles to conceive right after your period ends (this does happen for some women, I'm not saying it doesn't). Anyway, I agree you guys need a real method. Take the guesswork out of it. She shouldn't need an app to tell her if she's fertile, her own body should be telling her. Take a class or something. They probably offer them through your (her?) church.

texascfguy

@growingafmaily

I think you are correct, I have no idea when she is and isn't fertile and she never tells me unless I'm initiating sex. We took NFP classes before we got married but that stuff didn't really stick. I guess we need to talk about finding some way that works for both of us.

Tiger

texascfguy said:

@Tiger

That definitely makes sense. Could I have done something differently to initiate without the sex? Should I just do the same thing and let her know that we are gonna have play time but no sex because she's fertile? 

I would initiate, when she says she does not want to have sex because she is fertile then suggest something that is sexual but does not involve PiV or anything that could result in pregnancy.  Given what just happened last night, I think you can also just have a conversation about finding ways to be sexual when she's fertile, I'd offer to accept responsibility to make sure that neither of you get "lost in the moment".  You have to man up and accept responsibility for keeping your semen contained  Explore with your hands and mouth instead...

TheEdge

@texascfguy ; Interesting thread.  First, I'd challenge the idea that you're thinking of sex with your wife as your "release."  Second, I'd concur with others that y'all's "method" is quite primitive, even though you're using an app to track it.  My wife gets fertile about two days after her period ends; it used to be about 10.  Everybody is different.  You need to be the leader here -- geez,  third world women can learn NFP in a couple hours, especially the mucous only version.  Your wife should not have a problem.  Of course, she might be squeamish about constantly checking her mucous, so maybe that's a barrier to get through.  But, seriously, you and her both need to know more scientifically when you're fertile.  After all these years, you could put me in a coma, randomly wake me up, and I could tell within a minute if my wife is fertile or not, just by her demeanor and subtle things like that (or, if she's whistling songs, she's fertile -- weird). 

OK, back to the "release" thing.  As long as you're going to do the Catholic thing, look at marital sex as "mutual self-giving."  Viewing it as a way for you to "get off" and have a "release" is a very porno way to look at sex.  Serious question here...What would she have done if you had just tossed her on the bed, pulled down her panties, and just ate her out for 30 minutes?  If she would have liked that, that's what you should have done.  When she gets hot, flip her over to a 69 (heaven on earth to this guy).  Next time, if she says something like, "I don't want to get pregnant," say something like, "Oh, trust me, you won't get pregnant" as you flip her on her stomach and finger her until she cums.  That's the NFP I remember!!  (Caveat: That's not the official Catholic way to do NFP.  I'm just saying...). 

texascfguy

@theedge

Thanks for the insight. I guess I should've been more clear. By release I meant the last time I used porn. I don't see my wife as just a place to release myself. She has been very wishy washy about having kids right now and its confusing for me. I wasn't aware that fertility didn't start imidiatly after her period ended. Also the last time we had sex there was no checking of the app or concern on her part if she was fertile. So you can see my problem. I agree that we need to figure out a way to know when she is fertile so things like last night don't happen again. Obviously she and I have some things to talk about.

TheEdge

@texascfguy

 I wasn't aware that fertility didn't start imidiatly after her period ended.

You guys are pretty funny.  You're both apparently quite educated and intelligent, and NFP is really, really simple if you do the basics.  Look, here's NFP in a nutshell.  When a woman is not fertile, she's generally "dry" or "wet but not slimy."  When she turns "slippery," then she's beginning the "fertile" time because ovulation (when the egg is released and you can actually get pregnant) can begin anytime thereafter.  Sperm can live up to three days in there, so you can have sex on Tuesday, wifey ovulates on Thursday, and you can get pregnant.  Those babies will tend to be females due to the different actions of sperm that cause boys or girils (think of boy-causing sperm as "sprinters," and girl-causing sperm as "long-distance runners").  Once wifey is ovulating, then the cervical mucous will tend to be thick and stretchy (kind of like snot).  Once that stops and the mucous becomes either non-existent or wet-but-not-slippery, you are "post-peak" (or post-ovulation).  Generally, you would then wait another three days until PIV intercourse.  How does she check?  Each time she pees and wipes, she needs to wipe again real deeply and then inspect her mucous.  It's really that simple, at least for basic NFP.  Delete the app because it's useless.  If you've been using that for three years and still aren't pregnant, y'all might want to see a doctor!!

Good luck, Italian Stallion!