New to MMSL, my story

Seneca

Hi everyone,

New to MMSL, just posted in the intro forum, and want to expand a bit on my situation.

Early 30s, married for five years (more about that kind of stuff in the intro thread).  I'm fairly smart, and I don't begin to pretend that all of my problems are caused by external factors.  If anything I'm fairly hard on myself and tend to look inwardly when  trying to assess a problem.  Sexually speaking, I'm fairly curious.  I think sex and sexuality are healthy and I am intrigued by the subject.  I read about sex and relationships, and have come to understand that having a satisfying sexual relationship has at least as much to do with yourself as it does your partner.

I struggle with energy and I sometimes have trouble motivating myself even to do mundane tasks.  I'm also very hard on myself when I don't meet my own (high) expectations.  I hate feeling like a loser, and right now I'm going through a stretch where I really can't shake the fact that, given the opportunities I've had, I should be a better person that what I've become.  I think my lack of energy and lack of confidence combine to wreck havoc on my sex drive.  I often feel loathe to deal with my sexual relationship because it seems like too daunting a task, and I also don't feel very confident in my own body or abilities to perform the task.  I end up hating myself because I have no energy to bother fixing myself.  It's a bit of a vicious cycle.

My wife is basically amazing at everything with two possible exceptions (that I'll get to later).  She is a wonderful mother - basically a complete natural.  She's smart and very kind to others.  She spends most of her time trying to think up ways to brighten someone else's day.  She takes home a decent income which, when combined with mine, leaves us with very little to worry about financially.  She sucks at communication and sexuality.  By communication I mean that I feel like she is very hesitant to share exactly what she's thinking / feeling / desiring in a straightforward sort of way (both about sexual matters and all other matters).  She likes to hint at things and come at what she's really thinking from weird hidden angles.  I think this ends up frustrating both of us, because I don't always know what she wants, and she'd rather just be sad about me not getting her message than actually be straightforward about what she's thinking.

On the sexual side, she is not very curious.  And not in a "won't try new things" way.  I don't see a lot of interest from her in her own sexuality.  It seems like she doesn't think about it very much.  I don't think she has any fetishes or turnons.  I'd be extremely surprised if she's ever read anything about sex.  I find this difficult, probably because I'm the opposite, but also because I know there are a lot of women who are curious about sex and sexuality and making it a fulfilling part of their lives.  I am drawn to people that have an interest in something, and sex is no different.

She is an attractive woman, but I haven't been feeling drawn to her and her lack of sexual curiosity is a big part of that.  Her body has changed since our daughter came along, which is to be expected.  On the other hand, I don't know whether she is really doing as much as she can to take care of herself physically.  I don't pressure about this because I know it can be a touchy subject, but it impacts my interest level.

We don't have a lot of sex since our daughter was born.  But we didn't really do it very much before that either.  We struggled for some time with miscarriages.  For about 3 years sex became a job.  But even before that I can't say sex was great.  It was more frequent for sure, but not THAT frequent or satisfying.  It got to the point where we would both be almost relieved when the other person said they didn't really fee like having sex.

I want a great sex life and I want a great relationship.  I love my wife and I don't want our marriage to fail, but I don't believe a marriage can be truly great without a satisfying sex life.  I don't blame my wife for our sexual troubles.  I'm here because I want to create a strategy for working through our problems together.

So that's why I'm here.  I'll be doing as much reading here as I can, and I'll be following the discussion boards as well.

Thanks for having me.

EinMan

Welcome. Others will chime in, but I just wanted to say that Athol does say that sex in the beginning of the relationship is a usual high water mark. That said, I'm having more sex than when we were just married. We're also doing things we never did and are both more adventurous. This is with a woman who explained to me that after 2 kids and at her advanced age (early 40's) that she wasn't interested in sex and that her body (lubrication) wasn't even responding to sex any more... Guess what? We both found out just how horny she could be with the right mix of alpha, beta, not asking, not asking and being rough  Oh, and I have found that wanting her to say stuff we should be able to figure out is not a fault of hers.  I think that if you want to be married to someone logical, who says what they mean and means what they say, then we should try marrying a man, now that its legal. Otherwise, we need to accept that they can't be "more like us" and that as we embrace their differences, the whole relationship gets better.

You didn't say if you read the book yet.  I also highly recommend "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "The way of the superior man" and as a quick read, this: http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sea/561877622.html

Seneca

@Naku - thanks for the response.  I think, maybe, the big difference between my situation and the way others have described their own here thus far is that I don't really think my problem is my wife not wanting to have sex.  I think mine is more of a quality problem than a quantity problem, but that the fact that neither of us really enjoys us leads us not to do it at all.  And I'm not suggesting the quality problem is all her fault, either.  When I have no energy or sexual confidence, there is no way I'm going to make it any fun for her either.

I should mention as well that we've talked about most of this.  We've talked about our sex life, how neither of us really enjoys it, how we want to do better.  I do sort of feel, though, like I'm the only one that sees any value in trying to improve.  I think she wants it to be better, but I feel like she doesn't really want to do anything to make it that way.  This is what I meant about her lack of sexual curiosity - it's like she never thinks about it, wonders whether she'd like something else.  I can't really think of a better way to describe it than a lack of sexual curiosity.  I feel like I have a hard time wanting to have sex with her when I know that she doesn't really think of herself in a sexual way.  Weird on my part, maybe.

The_Dude

I don't think you're that unusual at all. Buy the primer and read it thoroughly. Then come back and discuss it. You sound like an intellectually curious and logical guy. If you read it I think a light bulb will click on. Then you just have to execute.
Your wife sounds like she has a lot of potential. You have to unlock it.

Mongrel

"I struggle with energy and I sometimes have trouble motivating myself even to do mundane tasks.  I'm also very hard on myself when I don't meet my own (high) expectations.  I hate feeling like a loser, and right now I'm going through a stretch where I really can't shake the fact that, given the opportunities I've had, I should be a better person that what I've become.  I think my lack of energy and lack of confidence combine to wreck havoc on my sex drive.  I often feel loathe to deal with my sexual relationship because it seems like too daunting a task, and I also don't feel very confident in my own body or abilities to perform the task.  I end up hating myself because I have no energy to bother fixing myself.  It's a bit of a vicious cycle."

Two things:  one, you may want to get your testosterone level checked. Two, you need to start an exercise regimen (lifting is prescribed around here more than cardio, but I think a balance of both is important).  This should help increase your energy level once you get the juices flowing regularly.

Your story isn't different from several others on here. Quality, not quantity, has been the goal of several participants and you'll get helpful ideas here.

Seneca

I've thought about the testosterone level, and I've even asked my doctor about it.  She said she doubted that would be a problem for me, and claimed it isn't really something for men in their early thirties to start worrying about.  I'm not fully convinced.  She does tend to be quickly submissive of ideas at times.

So I haven't gotten my T level tested yet.  Either way, I'm going to be trying to consume foods that are known to boost T production.

And yes, I'll be hitting the books over the next week while I have some time off from work.

Thanks again for all the advice.  I'm glad I signed up for the forum.

The_Dude

Get the t level test. It's a cheap and easy test. Get the results and post them here. Don't let a doctor tell you not to test it. If she refuses, find a new doctor.
It may be fine but we've seen a lot of young guys with low levels. Age is not the only factor. There are other causes.
http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/testosterone-replacement-therapy

DaveBowman

Welcome, and I resonate with your story a whole lot.

My advice is to listen to the posters above, and try to spend at least one day outside your head. By this I mean spend just one day doing instead of thinking.

Masculinity in my mind is the positive, active force in the world. Embrace your manhood and quieten your neocortex a bit. Just for one day.

Let us know how that feels.

Seneca

Thanks, @DaveBowman .  That's good advice.  It's also somewhat comforting to know that my story resonates with you.

DaveBowman

Seneca said:

Thanks, @DaveBowman .  That's good advice.  It's also somewhat comforting to know that my story resonates with you.

Hey buddy, you're welcome.

I virtually guarantee there's a whole group of awesome dudes that have lived your problems, solved them, and can guide you on the path.

This can be a tough place, like a dojo. But AK has created something incredible here: a dojo for life. 

You've taken the first step: you want to make your life better.

BrianC

@seneca, honestly most GPs don't know much about the endocrine system. Your low energy could definitely be a matter of low testosterone, which is becoming an epidemic among men aged 45 and under.  There re other posibiities like hypothyroidism that could be a problem, but given your healthy weight, that doesn't seem as likely.  

Motivation and time management are two of my specialities.  If you tell me a little more, I might be able to help.

Seneca

Thanks, @BrianC .  My doc sent me for a thyroid test after my last visit (the same time I suggested the possibility of low T).  She wasn't hearing any of the Low T business, but did test my thyroid and everything is fine in that respect.

My plan, right now, is to delve more deeply into the Primer and other resources, and start on my MAP.  We'll see how that all shakes out.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

Seneca

Hope everyone's holiday season was good and that you got a chance to take a break from work and the like for a bit.

I had a good break.  I read both the Primer and the MAP books and ate them both up.  I'm going to use this thread as a place to keep tabs on myself and my map progress.

The break was also good in another way.  I had some sexual energy return - I've sort of lost count, but I think my wife and I had sex about 7 times over the past 10 days or so.  Not too bad!  That said, her willingness was never really a problem.  Even so, the quality was really good.

I came upon MMSL sort of coincidentally in conjunction with cutting out porn and masturbation.  I've been porn free for about a month now, and masturbation free for 3 weeks or so.  I feel like a teenager, except instead of using my hand I've been using my wife, and she's loving it.

Still work to do to sustain this though.  I need to keep feeding my energy.

If you're interested in following my progress, please keep tabs on this thread.

Thanks again for all the encouragement.

TK421

I'm having my T checked next Friday and I'm 38. Don't feel T is an issue but I want to know for sure where I'm at. Sometimes I feel like I've lost my vitality but sometimes I feel like a champ. Kicking porn will be a big help. I go through streaks where I don't use it for 2-3 weeks and notice a difference, but then I tend to relapse into daily use for 2-3 weeks. I'm much happier when I'm clean (like right now!)

Seneca

@TK421 - I never really thought porn was that big of an issue for me.  I was never really a daily user or someone who'd put porn before other priorities.  Still, since I cut it out a month ago things are way better.  It's possible that this is all very coincidental and the return of my sexual energy had nothing to do with cutting off porn, but I kind of doubt that.  It's crazy how much more sexual energy I have now.  I'm just totally drawn to my wife right now, and I feel a lot better about the rest of my life as well.  I feel like I've turned a corner.

But I'm still going to need to MAP to get rid of the other energy sucking elements in my life.

TK421

Sure, I'd be happy to. I'm interested to see what other men my age have.

Seneca

@ANewHope That's an interesting question, and maybe it's too early to tell, but I will say this: I feel no desire to watch porn at all, yet a pretty constant desire to have sex with my wife.  And the sex has been as good or better than ever.  Avoiding masturbation also hasn't been a hardship, though I suppose it could be worse if my wife wasn't so responsive.

I feel like my realization that my problems relating to sex ultimately start with me has been a big psychological breakthrough.  The notion that I can actually make my wife more sexually attractive just by being more sexually attractive myself (in my actions in the short term and in other aspects with time) is so simple, yet had evaded me for some reason.  

I was basically blaming my wife for my lack of attraction to her, when really I've just been disgusted with myself.

Seneca

The latest...

I've been knocked down with a cold over the last few days and it has sucked the energy right out of me and wrecked havoc on my recuperating sex drive.  It's made it hard to move much and infected me with the idea that I probably shouldn't get too close to my wife for fear of getting her sick as well.  So sex has been absent since Thursday night, a 3-day drought.  I'm feeling much better today and hoping to get back in the win column tonight.  Sexting to begin shortly.

I mentioned in my last post that I have finished MMSL Primer and the MAP book.  Both were great, and while I don't necessarily agree with every aspect, I think the underlying theory and mindset are sound, and I think that's 99% of the value anyway.  My cold stunted my MAP, but I have taken the first step in the physical department by recommitting to a healthy, low calorie diet to try to get rid of the weight I put on over the past year.  Exercise will resume soon as well, though there are a few hangups there (two conflicting MAP pieces, actually) that I'll get into later.

I've decided to begin my MAP with some statements of what I'm hoping to accomplish by running it.  These statements are, by definition, outcome oriented.  I know the entire basis of MMSL is to shirt outcome oriented thinking internally.  Consider this step one: understanding the outcomes I'm driving at in order to help triage my self-improvement.

Intended Outcomes (in no particular order):

1) Increase my sex appeal

2) Increased frequency of sex

3) Increased quality of sex by unleashing my wife's "inner slut"

4) Increase my general energy levels

5) Increase my confidence and sense of self-worth

Templar

Keeping the porn and masturbation out will make a difference for you. Your norm for sex and sex fantasies needs to be your wife and what you do with her.

Remember to keep this about you. Sex is part of the overall plan, but the changes and improvements in your life need to be focused on you and how you interact with your wife, daughter and the world.

Seneca

***Would there be a way to get this thread moved into the "Running the Map" subsection?  I'd like to use it as a bit of a MAP diary, and it's in the wrong subsection for that I think.

Today's Update:

I'd say that my greatest success since starting this a few weeks ago has been my ability to maintain frame.  I was reading something yesterday that said a behavioural change is easier to make if the person feels like the new way of acting a part of their being, rather than just a way that they act.  I think that has been very helpful to me - maintaining the mindset that I am more alpha and that I am the leader of my relationship.  It's worked wonders recently, and it has made it much easier for me to handle normal downward fluctuations in mood.  Rather than fall into a depression, I keep telling myself that version of me is dead and the new version can have a bad day without turning into a pathetic wimp.

My wife is enjoying my new approach, with some moments of scepticism.  She has every right to be sceptical, I just make sure she knows she needs to be respectful and loving at the same time.  The only thing that will quell her scepticism is time - time over which I show her I am a different person.

Sex has been better, but has dried up recently due to a very bad cold / flu I contracted which led into shark week.  So tonight we get back on track.  When we've had it recently, the quality has been way way better.  I have upped the alpha big time, and she is responding.  

I've started to work on things around the house - basement has been prep'd for some renovations, new exterior door installed upstairs.  This week's plan includes new moulding around the front an rear doors.  So I'm making progress.

I'm still abstaining from porn and masturbation.  I don't recall the exact days, but it's definitely over a month for porn.  A little less for masturbation.  The porn hasn't even been an issue.  Masturbation has been a bit harder due to the lack of sex recently (flu / shark week).  But that will end tonight.

I've been finding it hard to make time to actually write up a MAP plan.  I know what my "monkeys" are, but I would like to eventually sit down an write up my goals, my triage, etc.  Mindset changes have led to some early success, but eventually I want to be able to use my MAP to plan my weeks, etc.  I have a few free evenings this week.  Maybe that will be a good use for them.

BrianC

I've moved the thread to Running the MAP as requested,