My History of Failed Stage 4 Attempts

CyrilFiggis

Seems like I have actually been unwittingly running a kind of MAP for about two years the more I think about it. Wish I had known all this stuff years ago.

My introduction and triage is hopefully linked from my signature for background, but the situation is the classic presentation. Married to SAHM with kids. Four of the blighters. So on the plus side that's four times weve had sex right

Anyway frequency of sex has been a problem for as long as I can recall. I've made all the mistakes you can think of over the years - bar violence. Sex with others, sex with porn, getting angry, getting depressed, taking sleeping tablets, victim puking over email. All the worst most counter-productive things I have tried them and here I am - living testament that they don't work. Not for me/us anyway. YMMV.

By the way, there do seem to be an awful lot of guys with the SAHM in the same boat. Is there something about the dependency of this type of marriage that just kills sex or is it also as prevalent in working wives?

CyrilFiggis

On to the history. The first time things really came to a head was two years ago. Over Christmas in fact. It seems like a cliché but it is such a danger time for marriages. Everything just builds up and up and you can't escape each other. This was all pre-MAP of course, so no need to point out just where I am going wrong - plenty of scope for that closer to the present don't worry.

Christmas Eve 2011 - we prepare and place presents for all our kids. It feels so special doing this annual ritual together. It's stressful at the time, but wrapping together and furtively hiding the presents and everything is a real bonding experience, for me at least. It's like a massive dose of beta. oxytocin overload. When it's all said and done there is a huge relief and we collapse into bed tired but happy. For me there is one thing that would just round off this wonderful evening of togetherness. A good fuck. I don't (didn't) initiate often due to the stress of rejection, but gave it a try. There was of course no way in hell she was having sex - far too tired for anything like that.

This pattern continues over Christmas and through the whole holiday break. Eventually on Dec 30th I get sex. Not just any sex this is the ultimate in starfish sex. She lies on her side immobile while I screw her. OK take what you can get right? Any port in a storm. Beggars can't be choosers? Sure up to a point. I realise in a moment of utter despair that not only is she disinterested, but she is actually trying to go to sleep during sex. Feeling crushed I withdraw my penis from her uninterested vagina. I feel total disgust. With myself as much as with her in fact. I feel as low as a man can get without actually being castrated. (Sometimes castration would be kinder - they do it to dogs for that very reason)

December 31st 2011 - I can't recall exactly how this went but I was sulking - a massive face on the whole day. Can't even recall what we did that evening - I think we just stayed home and watched TV.

Jan 1st. This is a big day for us, January 1st for all he wrong reasons. In 1994 I broke the news to her that I had been unfaithful and felt so bad about it I had to confess (see triage for gory details). In 2012 I told her that I was unhappy and that I was not sure I wanted to stay married to her. It was rather bad timing as we were due to go and visit my family for a day at a hotel/spa. She took it badly and decided to stay at home while I took the kids off for the day. I broke the news to my folks during the day as they could tell something really bad was wrong. They were actually quite sympathetic and curiously not very surprised by this turn of events. Seems like they had just been waiting for the day to come around in fact. They offered their townhouse as a bolt hole in case I needed some space.

I went home and things were still bad. I made up a camp bed in a downstairs room and tried to sleep down there for the night. Kids distraught by now, they think that this is it. Mum and Dad are splitting up and this is how it starts. I tell her I can go and stay at my folks spare apartment to give us some space.

Jan 2nd. After a night apart we eventually talk. We are not ready to split just yet. I take the kids and dump them with my folks so we can talk about what to do. We go for a walk. We hold hands. We both agree to give it another shot. We sit down and work out a plan. We will get our finances straight. We will limit our time on electronic gadgets. We will not watch so much TV. I will help her get kids packed lunches ready. She will lose weight and get fitter. We will go to bed earlier. We will make time for each other twice a week. We will try Sensate Focus. We will try and go out more and have "fun". I go get the kids and everyone is relieved that we have managed to talk ourselves down from the ledge.

For a while it works. We go to a Zumba class together. Once.

Sensate Focus is great and after a couple of weeks rebuilding our confidence we have some fabulous sex. HMS. With what I know now it was probably just ovulation sex, but I wasn't to know that then. They don't teach you this in school. This lasts a while, but she starts to tire of the routine. She finds reasons to be late for Sensate. We skip some. We lose the routine. I have to work away on business. We stop sensate all together after a few months. I lose the will to pressure her into it. Things return to normal.

This, I think is the fundamental problem with a stage six ultimatum over lack of sex. Sure you'll get compliance. For a while. Then it slides again. So from a carefully prepared position where you can claim the moral high ground and even leave home looking like you are not a total douche, because she refused a totally reasonable proposition. You then have to basically divorce her for a final straw-that-breaks-camels-back denial of sex. Difficult. I know - MAP enough and it may not come to that. But also, as Athol is careful to point out, it might.

Fast forward to last year. Similar scenario, but without the same level of histrionics from yours truly. I am more prepared this time and simply suggest that we try Sensate Focus again in January. To reinvigorate our sex life. She is OK with this and again sex resumes briefly. This time it dies out quicker though. She knows now that my will is not strong enough nor my heart hard enough to leave her and the kids I guess. Nor my finances come to think of it.

CyrilFiggis

We now go into a regular pattern of about three montly cycles. The tension builds up in me between the monthly dose of ovulation sex. That brief entrance into the promised land is enough to keep me going but only just. Sometimes we even miss that. I masturbate to work off the frustration. I have not kept meticulous records, but I would estimate that I was masturbating about 20:1 ratio to actual PIV sex. (our sex life almost always ends PIV never just BJ/HJ or cunnilingus to orgasm. She rarely comes, unsurprisingly). I experience a wide range of degrading sexual fantasies, many aided by internet porn. Female dominance was a big turn on for me. With hindsight I realise that this is mainly because it implies/proves that she is actually interested sexually. Cuckoldry stories and images likewise. I even got turned on by gay fantasies. I kind of figured that I was spending so much of my sexual life solo rather than with an actual woman then perhaps I was actually one of these married men who turned out to be latent gay. Perhaps the wanking was actually turning me gay. Perhaps the fantasies didn't matter in fact so long as I was getting off. it was, however having an insidious effect on my mind and sense of self-worth and I had frequent episodes of anxiety and depression.

I had such trouble sleeping after one phase of rejection that I sought sleeping tablets from my doctor. I medicated myself to ease the pain of my wife hating me with her vagina. That's how bad I was feeling.

The most recent cycle of rejection and frustration came to a head in November this year. She in fact recognised that we had not had sex in weeks and we made a date to get the kids in bed early and go to bed together for quality time. On the face of it great, but I have had these turn sour many times, so I never actually count my chickens until my cock is balls deep in her vagina, that is how weak and pathetic I had become. I was on a knife edge of anxiety about whether I would get any sex, despite being on a promise. In bed she was totally unapproachable, arms crossed, legs clamped tightly shut. After some initial attempts around the edges it seems that she wants to talk first before we more on to anything. She talks about her day. She met an acquaintance in the supermarket, poor woman has got cancer. Breast cancer. Is having chemo, but might need a mastectomy (Her sexy talk could kill the erection from a bull elephant I swear!). Knowing that I just have to wait this out I hum and mmm and oh no like a good'un. Right says she, I suppose we have better get on with it. Do I have to take my pyjama bottoms off? she asks. I confirm that sex with be difficult without. Can she keep one leg in because its always hard to find them afterwards if she takes them off completely. I suggest it would be better to take them off completely. She will keep her top on though, complete with tight fitting sports bra to prevent her boobs from going too droopy. Not sure exactly whose benefit this is for sometimes. Right says she - are you ready? she investigates my penis, which, but this time has lost it's earlier interest. She is disappointed - why what's wrong? she cries. Why aren't you hard? I mumble something about the lack of foreplay. she tries to vigorously jack my limp dick. Which results in things just getting limper. I suggest that her hand technique is a little bit lacking, and that her sexy talk could be better.

Humph say she. Goodnight then and turns over. Two minutes later she is fast asleep. I am stewing in rage and frustration.

I steam for a few days, denying her morning tea. She knows this is a sign that she has pushed me too far and tries to kiss me when I come home but I am still angry and pig-headed and offer cheek instead of lips. having masturbated myself to a standstill I finally twig that through this route lies only madness. I scour the internet for other sources of wisdom. Initially I turn to marriage guidance and sex therapy. It's time, I think for us to go to sex therapy.

I break the silent treatment to tell her I think we should go to sex therapy. She professes total surprise. Why? Nothing is wrong with our sex life. I always say how much I like it when we have sex. It's just selfish to want sex all the time. There is more to marriage than sex yada yada. Besides sex therapy is expensive and inconvenient, and we will need to find child minders. We just need to go out more and have fun, we don't need therapy. Everyone else has the same problem.

I research some more and stumble on some site that I've not been to before. MMSL. Suddenly things that were shrouded in mist become clear and I see what has been going on all this time. That was four weeks ago. Feels like forever. No going back.

Next posting will cover the actual MAP itself. Turns out I have actually been doing a lot of MAP things without realising they were MAP. Which is good to a certain extent. The problem is that I have been doing them in a random order, and not according to any planned route to stage three conclusion. Even after finding MMSL and reading the books I am still a bit haphazard about which stage I am in, and consequently what approaches I should be following.

Don't expect too many will have read all the way through this long puke of a post. if you do I salute you and your reward shall be in awesomeness. Thanks for listening. Hopefully I can sleep now as insomnia is currently my biggest danger.

EinMan

I read the whole post.  Well articulated. Many of us recognise the same statements.  Consider she's not aware of why she doesn't want sex at the moment, that moment being with you.  Now she also sounds like she could be turned around rather quickly.  My wife gave me a whole speech from the heart about being platonic and how a woman of a certain age doesn't get wet anymore because she's not meant to have children... She meant every word, but that said, is wet like a teenager almost every night, hugs me and tells me she loves me constantly.

So congratulations on your finding MMSL. You *will* be having sex soon, though as Athol writes, not necessarily with the current wife. But if you want, i suspect it's within your grasp, because she sounds like she does want to  make it work, she just doesn't understand there is a real problem in the marriage just yet

EinMan

CyrilFiggis - I just had an epiphany after digesting your writing and thinking about a conversation I had with a female friend whose husband had girlfriends and lied to her (as per my friend). The girlfriends part is true enough and he's divorcing her. She commented that she reckoned she'd grow old with someone - her own personal reaslisation of hitting the wall. ( See: http://therationalmale.com/2012/07/18/the-wall/)

Your story mirrors mine in the basic points in that my wife was convinced she didn't want sex. That's a good thing because it explains what Athol says. I get it finally about hypergamy not being personal. So I'll give you my understanding of our wives to you in a nutshell and explain why it's good news for you, even though painful at this point:

Your wife married you because she was attracted to you.  Attraction is chemistry and involuntary, she could not help feel it.  through time and circumstance, you have become a probably heavier and betaized version of your former self. http://marriedmansexlife.com/take-the-red-pill/nice-guys-and-betaization/ Like a thin wife putting on the pounds, you're not making the juices flow.  The good news is that she's not interpreting this that something is wrong with you - rather than thinking that somethings wrong with you that she's no longer sexually interested, she's saying the problem is with her, that it's her age, etc.  So the malfunction is with her, in her eyes and she's not too broken up about it.  In fact, she gives you sex whenever she can muster the energy because she  loves you and and it's not unenjoyable.

Now the only danger is that you will not be able to stand it, or worse, one day some alpha dude or even some boss or friend or man at the store, etc will pay some attention to her and (surprise) she will feel that tingle again.  She didn't even believe she still had any feelings like that, but this.. this wonderful man has made her feel like she's 16 and life can be magical again and etc.   Of course she will feel tremendously guilty about this and her (irrational) mind will construct a rationale why she deserves to feel love again. After all, you've been denying it to her for so long, etc.

So your wife is at the point where she doesn't realise she's still a sexual animal.  You are the guy to reintroduce it to her.  She will be as surprised as you, and this time, you're going to be even more sexual and dirtier than before.  That's what the map is for. keep reading, doing and remember that she actually loves you. Now go get her if you want her.

The_Dude

Outstanding posts and reply. 

@naku excellent dude.

Angeline

@Naku just described not.only that the hamster.sometimes works in your favor (convinced that she is the problem), but that it was both of you who slid out of behaviors that keep the attraction high. She didn't just stop having sex, you stopped making her want to. ("We stopped going to sensate classes, I had business trips, I lose the will to pressure her into it").

If you can let go of resentment and focus on you, maybe you can turn things around.

CyrilFiggis

Thanks all posters for help and support. You are awesome to read all this stuff and try to help.

Is Relate (uk) marriage guidance blue-pill does anyone know? Also sex therapy?

Sensate focus is something I came across (no pun intended) two years ago and it helped us a lot to restore intimacy for a while. I think it is red-pill to a certain extent, although it does require a degree of sexual frustration at first.

WillThisWork

Has anyone here ever read the book Passionate Marriage? I think the ideas really compliment the ideas here (on this forum) very nicely, while adding some additional insights into @CyrilFiggis and others' dynamics. 

CyrilFiggis

Continuing the story a little. Turns out I have been unwittingly doing a few MAP things without realising. 

• I've been running a club at our school helping the kids learn tech skills. I never realised when I started but it turns out to be a huge display of high value, albeit in a beta mode of good provider. 
• I am working out pretty regular, although mainly focussed on aerobic and core training. I am not in bad shape but could do now with adding some weights back in.
  
• I've been spending time for myself on a hobby which has made me many new friends. Turns out that some of these people happen to be also in her wider circle.
• I've been raising my profile at work and getting noticed for good reasons by my bosses
• Putting family filters on the internet to try and curb (my) porn use.

Anyway that's my starting point for the MAP. As you recall the story ended with a failed attempt at sex. This was the end of November. This is all pre-MMSL at this stage. A week went by and I lapsed lower and lower into a state of depression. I resorted as I always did to masturbation and porn, which only made me feel worse as usual. By the end of the week I had reached a major low and we were barely communicating.

On the Saturday morning i tell her that I want us to attend sex therapy sessions. just like that out of the blue first thing in the morning. She is surprised and does not understand what is wrong again. She makes a noncommital reply along the lines of "yeah whatever". She thinks I am making mountains out of molehills again. Sex is not the only thing!

Later on in the morning we had a family outing planned to go and buy a Christmas tree. Lovely beta activity full of love and warm feelings right?  Wrong. I felt all like hollowed out (this phrase crops up a lot, but described exactly how I felt), like a void in my chest. Guess that was where my manhood should have been right? Still barely talking. Grunting maybe. Minimum functional communication. In the afternoon she goes out with the kids to a party. I am left alone with my loneliness. Do I get cracking on the bazillion tasks and jobs around the house? Of course not I surf the net and jack off to the most degrading vile images of sluts and whores I can find (sorry females it's the testosterone what can I say |) )

Afterwards I also surf the net to try and figure out what is wrong with my marriage that it feels so bad. I've been here before many times, so I am not expecting a lot out of it. I look for marriage guidance and sex therapists. I search for sexless marriage advice. I stumble on MMSL. At first, I have to admit, I was so conditioned to blue-pill thinking I kind of rejected it out of hand. Like "No way this will ever fly with her - besides I actually like her being dominant over me. Right? Right?". I pack up the internet for a while and crack on and do some ironing. She has left me a big pile to do while she is out with the kids. You cansee where this is going.

X_X

To be continued...

CyrilFiggis

Later on that night (Saturday early December) we make up. In fact we make up with sex. Only later on when I get clued up enough to start tracking her monthly cycle do I realise that this was actually ovulation day. Bang on the money and sure as clockwork she is horny as hell. We have our monthly quota of sex. It was good for me although I think her clit became over-sensitive and she was not able to come.

The following day something brings me back to MMSL. I start to read. i start to think. I start to digest the information. I begin to see that almost everything I have been trying to do to fix my marriage has been counter-productive. I decide to give this a try - I mean everything else has failed right? Nothing to lose.

My mood is suddenly boosted.The next week flies by and I am on a massive high at work. I have a night out for a few drinks planned on Friday. (This is all in my introduction and triage thread actually so I will skip the details here). Suffice to say that I let her know I want to have sex when I get home from the pub and it happens. Wow - this is powerful stuff. Actually telling your wife what you want could work - who knew? We have my work Christmas party that weeknd - also describe in my intro...

I am starting to MAP before I have got the books, and before I have a plan, so it is rather haphazard and scattergun, bull-at-a-gate approach. She does not know what has hit her and is not at all comfortable with this change in me. I am like a "smoking jacket and cigar" man. She consoled herself with the idea that it will not last. I have had manic phases like this in the past. I order the books but delivery will take a few days, so I press on regardless.

The following week is equally manic - this is now the run up to Christmas. I am hammering the gym more than usual - planning a change in haircut and some new clothing and generally loving life. I play a new sport for me and make some new friends. I get signed up for match later in the week. Unfortunatley this ends in disaster as I dislocate my shoulder and end up in the ER. Dammit. This sets back my MAP as the rehab from this injury is going to be slow.

Story will continue at a later date as out of time now... on to Christmas and shark week all at the same time. Nothing can go wrong now!

DanG

IRONING! WTF??!!!! and what is that you are saying about my internet girls?

You hold off on the "whatever" counseling - for a while. We'll fix you right up.

Welcome.

CyrilFiggis

OK on with the story. Weekend before Christmas I have a big night out for us planned. Dinner booked, Concert tickets sorted. I am MAPing like crazy by this point, but it's a little manic, and hyper. I have not really sat down and figured out what stage I am at and what my focus should be on. I am doing everything. I arrange to buy new clothes. Get a haircut. Chatting with everyone I meet and flirting with all the women. It all comes to a bit of a craching halt with this stupid injury to my shoulder. Anyway i crack on and in fact the arm in a sling thing, if anything, provides more of a talking point. So we still go out despite the injury, I have new clothes on, new haircut, new cologne. I feel great in fact. I look pretty good to. We have a fabulous dinner, a wonderful concert. Come home and have sex. However this is also signals the start of her period - a time that always takes anything sexual off the agenda. 

The rest of the Christmas build up goes fine - things are always manic at this time. I try some initiation during shark week, something unheard of in recent times. This does more to irriate her than anything.

Christmas day rolls around - I recall that last year we actually nipped upstaris half way through the day for a quick fuck - could a repeat this year be on the cards? While we are getting dressed I suggest such a course of action could happen later on. She is aghast as such a suggestion. "I just want to spend time with my family" she spits. (Guess I don't class as "family" in this context huh?). I try to maintain frame, but can't stop spitting something back "Wouldn't hurt you just to take five minutes out of your day" or some such bitter barb. This she takes as further evidence of how little I care for her and that all I do think about is sex. ON CHRISTMAS - evidently it's the worst crime ever to suggest sex on Christmas day during her period. 

Things go on like this for a few days. I initiate each night, get red-carded and leave the bed to do something else. She complains about feeling under pressure to have sex. It's making her feel "worthless". 

While I can't hit the gym I start to focus on other areas to MAP. I decide it's time to have separate bank accounts and for me to take control of the finances. Part of our problem is overspending each month. We have plenty of savings, but they are gradually getting whittles away. We've had a joint account for over twenty years, so me making this change is a big deal for her. Again I am rather bull-at-a-gate with the MAPing - this may be earlier than necessary given where I actually am in the stages. it's a stage five move really, but I am trying to pull it at stage 1 or 2. Perhaps this precipitates what will come later on after New Years. I also pour effort into socialising - I set up invitations for people to come over to ours on a couple of invitations - she also invites some friends to come over on Dec 31st 

CyrilFiggis

I am sleeping really badly during this time. My shoulder is uncomfortable at night and in the run of sexual rejections my stress level is rising. When this happens my heart starts to pound really hard and I can feel blood coursing in my ears. It's really hard to get to sleep like this, so i get up and do stuff downstairs. I also wake up early and have trouble getting back to sleep, So I get up and do stuff. I am maintaining frame reasonably well. She is finding it weird that I keep initiating even though she is not in the mood. I explain the RAG system a couple of times, and even though she sort of get's it, the idea of her giving me an indication of her sexual interest before we go to bed does not sit well with her. It feels like I am trying to "control her". She does not like it. She is not having sex during her period and the idea that we might do non-PIV sex does not go down well at all.

Two days after Christmas she conceded and gives up starfish sex. This is also then final day of her period. I am ready for more the following two days but she goes back to red flags - pushing me away. December 31st rolls around - the day when we are expecting people over. I go into a frenzy of activity tidying up our messy house. I am horny as hell and initiate sex half way through the day. kids are occupied, we have the food in hand for the evening - let's nip upstairs for some quick sex says I. She rolls her eyes but agrees to go along with it and shortly she is bending over the bed. Unfortunatley things don't go to plan from here on in. She is not actually aroused, and in fact neither am I - not enough to penetrate anyway. We abandon the attempt when the mood goes sour. It turns out that in trying to push my semi into her I actually hurt her vulva - something she reveals the next day when she has stinging sensation passing urine. 

Our evening entertainment goes well, but I end up drinking too much and am unwell overnight. 

The following day she reveals the sore vagina, I take a look and there is indeed a little red mark where the skin is broken. I apologise profusely - last thing I want to do is to her her vagina. 

The Thursday jan 2nd she takes me to the hospital to see a surgeon about my shoulder. On the way home we stop off for tea - just the two of us as my parents are looking after our children. She is not happy though as I am still acting more alpha than normal. happier. more confident. more assertive. She is feeling threatened by the changes and they don't show any sign of going away. later that day I attempt to initiate again - she rejects - can't believe I would initiate again after hurting her. I am sorry - but how could I know she was still sore without asking, and she didn't tell me red in advance. Perhaps if she gave me red sign earlier on I would know not to initiate. I am "insensitive".

Same thing happens on the Friday - we are slumping in the to usual cycle of no-sex. I maintain frame reasonably well - apart from some rather pathetic  passive aggressive music playing first thing each morning. I am putting on sad songs about breakups each day when i am up early. These sometimes make me cry when i am there alone feeling sad. I am also taking my neighbours dog for walks to maintain my sanity and stay calm. 

Things are brewing up to a head and it's inevitable that this pressure will blow up soon. It all kicks off on Friday 3rd. Turns out this is also peak divorce day of the year!

CyrilFiggis

I had invited couple of people round on Friday night for games. However the atmosphere was distinctly frosty between us, so I was not sure at all how this would go. I had another early morning sob to sad music first thing. 

Something that dawned on me during this period was the crazy unplanned MAPing that I was doing was actually a little haphazard. Thinking back to earlier times, and in particular the episode two years ago (also at new years) made me realise that I had gone all the way to stage four back then and failed to follow through. Sex got better for a while. But then things relapsed. She probably does not think that I will ever actually do anything to change things no matter what. She can buy me off with sex for a while and then revert to lazy ways and dial it back to a trickle. This makes me realise that I should probably start right back and stage one for a while, and get that sorted before moving through the process in a calm and sensible way. 

Anyway things blow up later on that afternoon. Kids are busy. We've had lunch. Things are squared away. We've had coffee. She has spent some time working on her jigsaw. Hopefully her vagina is not sore by now. I initiate and let her know I want her in the bedroom stat. Flat out no. Ah well. I maintain frame and head up on my own anyway for a read and a nap. Few minutes later she appears looking slightly sheepish "I suppose I ought to join you" through gritted teeth. Ah well starfish better than nothing I think so we start. She does not want to get fully undressed so just take off her bottoms, She is unaroused even after we kiss and touch for several minutes. We carry on kissing. Still nothing - her legs are kept clamped tightly shut. This carries on for minutes while I am touching and stroking her. Eventually she says "just fuck me from behind and get it over with". I point out that there are two flaws to this approach - the lack of response from her has killed my erection and besides it was this approach that led to her getting sore vagina a few days previously. Again we abandon the attempt to have sex. 

i turn over and have a small breakdown. Massive sobs wrack my body as the waves of pent up sadness and misery wash through me. I realise just how much she hates me at that point - she can hardly bring herself to have sex with me - I realise then how hateful it must be for her to have sex with me when she feels like that. She is somewhat taken aback by this response. Any attempt to maintain frame is gone now - I am way past that and tears just flood out of me. I can't speak for several minutes. 

She make us a cup of tea and I recover my composure. Do you want to talk about it says she? Not really say I. It's her turn to lose frame a bit now and she starts to spew her feelings out. She feels worthless and unloved. Bottom of the pile and treated like shit. All I want from her is sex and housework. She has wasted her life. She hates my new cocky persona and resents me cutting off her money supply. This last one is an obvious shit test and I make it quite clear that her money has not been cut off. I am paying all the bills for us and giving her money for housekeeping and personal spending. Nothing has actually changed except that I am controlling the budget now. She racks up the ante now and brings up my affair from twenty years ago (see triage thread). She does not know why I stayed with her then. Out of pity she thinks. And why do I stay with her now? Because I am afraid what my parents will say she thinks. She is ranting batshit crazy by now so i decide to remove myself from the room - i go out for a walk on my own. Things look bleak.

CyrilFiggis

So final chapter which will bring us more or less bang up to date. 

I go for a walk and the gravity of the situation sinks in. However I have a few more tools at my disposal now than two years ago, and I also have a more steely resolve. If things are going to go to the wall at least I am going to come out stronger. Whereas two years ago I was ready to leave, now things are different. if she wants to leave then she can but I am staying put. Feels like I have been slightly bounced into another early stage four conversation but at least this time I understand how it should go.

I go home calmer. She is also calmer. We put the kids in another room and talk. I give her the "four outcomes" talk. I also explain that I am taking two of them off the table - I am not staying unhappy and I am not going to seek sex outside marriage. So either divorce or happy marriage with healthy sex life. I want the latter but if she can't or won't agree to that then I won't continue to put up with it. I explain that I have been unhappy with our sex life for a long time. i also think that she has been unhappy for a while something she agrees with. She has not found the SAHM thing to be as happy and satisfying as she once expected.  She even tries a bit of history revision and makes out it was all my idea for her to quit work (it wasn't - trust me!). I also give her the "I am changing - for the better" speech. " I hope very much that you'll join me and also change for the better and be happier, but if you can't or decide not to then it's not going to stop me on my path". We talked some more. I also explained that our relationship can't be based on children alone. There needs to be something more. Eventually the children with leave and what will we have left then? This is powerful stuff and there is more crying from both of us now and we hug and resolve to mend our ways. We are both quite red-eyed by now and guests are arriving shortly. We manage to bluff it out and acctually have a really fun evening. 

I have been tracking her periods for the last four weeks now. So I know that the following day is ovulation day. Sure enough she wakes up and she is horny as hell. I could laugh if it weren't so tragic. Anyway fabulous morning sex ensues. The rest of the weekend goes off in a dream - it's like a switch has been thrown and we are a normal happy loving couple again. The shock of the near break up still lingers a bit but things feel great. Sunday night we have sex again - this time even better and she is wet - wetter than I have felt her for a long time. She comes from my hand and then I finish in her. 

Fast forward a couple of days and things resume their normal pattern once ovulation is past. She is pissed at me because I have bought an iphone (while at the same time craking down on her own spending). The window cleaner came and she asked him to clean the insides next time. i asked her if there was any reason why she could not clean the insides herself? I knew full-well this would cause her to spit but hey - why is she wasting money like this? She is so angry about me owning a new phone that she has just red carded me. 

I know that this is just a latest chapter in a long story and that things will sometimes get better and sometimes worse. She won't change overnight. But it's kind of a "here we go again" feeling. We have a crisis - things get better briefly. Then back to ovulation sex once a month and a grumpy wife for the rest. Time to MAP my  way out. Maybe a bit more carefully from now on though... 

CyrilFiggis

One other interesting side effect from all this: her internet browsing habits have changed. Whereas before it was entirely games, email or shopping it is now also focussed on job searches, courses and connections with former colleagues. Interesting.

I had also resolved not to medicate myself for sleep - however lack of sleep can be a real problem. I might go to my doctors again and get some more tablets for those times when I get rejections late at night. It's all very well maintaining frame and going downstairs to do stuff. But it kind of wrecks the following day. She can't get this kind of hold over me. I don't want her to know that I am on sleeping pills again though.

DanG

Good job writing all it's up! :-bd

Some things that jumped out at me (in random order):

- I don't think things are as bad as you think. It doesn't seem that an affair is in this, other than yours. That is good.
- Did you ever apologize for your affair? If not, do so. You have to. Once and done. Then she can't bring it up again and you don't let her. The fact that she brought it up means it could be an unresolved resentment issue.

- Don't cry / stop crying in her presence - unless it is a LOT more serious situation or scenario than you have described.

- You talk too much. STFU. Decide what is going to happen and make it so. Don't debate with her. Don't explain with her. The colors thing is not working for her. Stop using it.

- She is successfully proving that you need to be more Alpha during sex. If she bends over and (essentially) says "Fuck this shit" then FUCK IT - HARD. The guy she would (might) have an affair would! She would be dreaming about it for days. THEN, the next time they had sex she would orgasm like crazy. Be that guy.

- Continue to monitor her browsing, but it doesn't seem serious right now. She is only squirming under your thumb. Let her squirm. Continue to define what is going to happen and MAKE it happen.

DanG

Don't INITIATE flirting w other women. That is a DLV. It's great if you draw them to you, you chat them up and your wife sees it. But, you should NOT initiate the flirt. That's just caddy. [-X

DanG

I'm trying not to be too harsh here, but . . .

Re: "Thinking back to earlier times, and in particular the episode two years ago (also at new years) made me realise that I had gone all the way to stage four back then and failed to follow through. Sex got better for a while. But then things relapsed. She probably does not think that I will ever actually do anything to change things no matter what. She can buy me off with sex for a while and then revert to lazy ways and dial it back to a trickle."

> Well, it seems that you LET her brow beat your frame back to your beta self. She tests your "new" frame (in a number of ways) and sure enough, she finds that there really nothing new.

Example:
"She make us a cup of tea and I recover my composure. Do you want to talk about it says she? Not really say I. [But you let her anyway .... ] It's her turn to lose frame a bit now and she starts to spew her feelings out. [She is the 'girl,' you are the Man. She is not expected to keep frame. You are.] She feels worthless and unloved. Bottom of the pile and treated like shit. All I want from her is sex and housework. She has wasted her life. She hates my new cocky persona and resents me cutting off her money supply. This last one is an obvious shit test and I make it quite clear that her money has not been cut off. I am paying all the bills for us and giving her money for housekeeping and personal spending. Nothing has actually changed except that I am controlling the budget now. She racks up the ante now and brings up my affair from twenty years ago (see triage thread). She does not know why I stayed with her then. Out of pity she thinks. And why do I stay with her now? Because I am afraid what my parents will say she thinks. She is ranting batshit crazy by now . . . "

> You sat there and was an audience for her emo-fit as she ramped it up higher and higher. You let her dig in her gunny sack for every last thing she had to throw at you. There is NO reason for you to have to let her re-hash the hash (unless you have not apologized). What is done is done. We move on. BUT, the problem is that you LET her reframe you, bring you down, and you were an audience for her fits - which stops you from moving on.

"She won't change overnight."
> YOU need to change for her to change. You need to definitively change and be a rock to all her assorted tests - sexual and emotional. Stop being dragged back by her. It's NOT so much that you are failing her tests, it's that she is able to prove, rightfully so, that you are your old self. YOU. HAVE. NOT. CHANGED.

Changed_Man

Excellent evaluation, @DanG.

Dude! You went straight from a hard phase 1 to phase 4... And it backfired. Every time you try that stunt, it will dig you even deeper back into phase 1.

There's a forum-ism from @sf64, "the bedroom comes last"... This particularly applies to your situation, IMO. I recommend you suspend initiating and just focus on you, your frame, and your MAP. Until you get back into your frame... living in your world, being outcome independent, killing your oneitis and all these obvious covert contracts... And can maintain your frame, she won't believe you and the rejection will get worse.

To recap... STFU (no more ultimatums), don't engage the hamster, be a great dad and enjoy your kids, engage in an activity you're passionate about, spend time with your buddies, and MAP like a mutherfucker.