My History of Failed Stage 4 Attempts

2456711

Comments

  • DanGDanG Member Posts: 1,519
    edited January 2014
    Addendum: If you are on porn, you need to get off of it. Situations such as ... "she is bending over the bed ... She is not actually aroused, and in fact neither am I - not enough to penetrate anyway" indicate you don't want it - HER - bad enough. She wants to be wanted - badly - NOT in alternate succession with (my!) internet hotties! When she bends over the bed and says, 'Tap this baby,' you go soft? In a woman's mind (which is based on desirability and attraction power), this shit compels her to ask such questions as .... "why I stayed with her then. Out of pity she thinks. And why do I stay with her now?" ... When ... you can't keep it up when she offers it up.

    The_DudeLiquidSound
  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    Right - thanks for the tough love guys.  ^:)^

    I have a real problem with STFU - so working on this is a priority. Just can't seem to help my big mouth running away with me.

    As you've gathered from my posts patience is not exactly my strongest suit either, but I do realise that it's taken twenty years to get our marriage in this state. Things are not going to change overnight. It's going to take time and determination to turn this around. 

    Regarding porn - I have kicked this for the moment and have been feeling better as a result - I would not say that I was ever a massive porn addict, but it definitely was a crutch to get through repeated rejections. The MAP is the better route out of this though - that much is clear.

    Changed_ManAngeline
  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    The repercussions of the latest bust up continue to manifest. Last Friday night we get it on and things are hot. She give me a BJ while I finger her and then she ends by riding me to orgasm - afterwards she says that she reckons things are better when she is more dominant - she does not like me trying to be dominant over her. There is a lot I would like to say but manage to keep it buttoned.

    We have a great weekend but she knocks back sex on Saturday morning, Saturday night, Sunday night, Monday night and also now Tuesday night. She feels under pressure to have sex after the most recent of the confrontations. She is making a big "thing" about having to have sex every three days, or I am going to cut her allowance or divorce her or something. It's blatant shit-testing. I joke along at first giving it "yeah we could just have sex, like 30 days in a row and then you could take 60 off" kind of thing, but she is pushing for a fight. 

    So tonight the pressure built up even more - she wants to just lie back and read her book, but I get under the covers and start kissing her and touching her legs and feet. Eventually she says that it's not turning her on at all and she hates having her feet kissed. OK reluctantly she huffs and says well I'd better have sex with you otherwise you'll be getting angry with me won't you. How long can we go before you get really angry again? It's shit test time and they are coming thick and fast. She is warming to her theme now... and is fixated on this target of three times a week she thinks I have set her. (I didn't in fact set any target - this was just the level I thought comprised a reasonable expectation of sex frequency). She thinks three times a week is to high to and that I'm expecting too much.(This woman has the worst line in sexy talk you have ever heard). She laughs "Are you hard yet?" scornfully because of course I am not. it goes on like this for a while... testing, testing testing. Then "Perhaps I should set you some targets. Like clean the toilets once". Finally she gets something from me she can use "No way - that's your job" - Oh now this make her feel like crap and the lowest of the low apparently -  I explain as stay at home mom then it's reasonable to expect her to do most of the housework. My "tone" though has given her what she needs to complete the full sex shit test. Sex is completely out of the question now - it's almost like she wants me to go off in a huff to reinforce the power she has over me. OK whatever I keep in a reasonable frame - I go and do some hobby stuff and then vent on here...

    OK enough already - I can already hear the cries from the forum - I know. I get it. Sex comes last. I've made things worse again with a rushed and ill-considered stage 4 event without the proper groundwork. STFU. MAP for me not for sex. Go dark. Stop pressuring her into sex. Work on OI. Need her less. 

    I'm gonna can this thread because I don't think it's really a 911 issue now... I will start a new thread in running the MAP to document what I am actually going to do.
  • The_DudeThe_Dude Hollywood Star LanesGold Men Posts: 4,583
    Just ask @serenity to move it to running the map so it doesn't get broken up all over he place. Your own answer to your problem was right btw.
  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    edited January 2014
    I've been trying to figure out which stage I'm at given the above history of failed stage 4 attempts. The fallout from the last one is still playing out and she is shit testing me constantly at the moment.

    Reading the MAP book about this I should take my medicine and accept that I am right back in stage one right? Although my SR is higher than hers she know that she's still got a hold over me and can continue to suck the blood from me for as long as she wants, because she does not believe that anything has changed. So given this how should I respond to the current shit-storm?

    I am currently calling her out when she is coming with the passive-aggressive tests, but me standing up for myself and not accepting her shit tests is winding her up big time. 

    Examples: This morning she came out with some PA garbage - talking to our 3yo daughter in the kitchen at breakfast time while I am in the room. 3yo wants to stay home with her mom instead of going to kindergarten. Wife talks to kid, but it's for my benefit... "You can't stay home with me I have to get on with my housework - it's all I am good for!". I ask her what she means by that exactly. She says "Nothing". I call it passive-aggressive bullshit and remind her that she chose the path of SAHM and that I am sorry if she regrets her decision but that's how it is She says that she regrets "Lots of things". Rest of the day spent barely acknowledging my presence. Does not respond when I touch her later on.

    End of the day things have thawed just a little. She is on her computer, I am on mine. I am tired from the lack of sleep from the night before so I head up to bed to get some sleep. She calls up "Is that you going to bed?" I come down and say "Yes, why? Did you want to do something with me?". She comes back with another PA shit-test... "I can't right now I am writing a eulogy for our neighbour who just died... I am sorry that I can;t focus entirely on you right now". 

    Fucks sake. OK I admit she hits my anger button. I tell her that I am not taking that bullshit off her any more and that she cannot use our dead neighbour as a tool to snipe at me. Apparently my "tone" was wrong when I spoke to her, which provokes her snotty reply. We have a brief spat - I go to bed. 

    What's the best approach to this kind of shit-testing - especially if I am as I fear right back in stage 1? Do I just let it lie? Laugh it off? Let her get away with this shit or push back on it, while keeping my temper. 

    Later on when she come to bed I try to reach out and touch her. She tells me to leave her alone. 

    Hah - I just had this thread moved out of 911 category but feels like it's right back there again! A few people have died or are dying in our community right now - it seems crazy that we live in this misery for our short time on earth. Why can't she see this?


  • LordVaderLordVader VirginiaSilver Member Posts: 360
    You're Phase 1 right now, and unfortunately you've set yourself back by trying to jump ahead. Milf has it right - your best course of action is to shut up and work on yourself. At this point, she will not come to you, and you can't logic or reason or even guilt her into attraction or love. It's the hardest thing in the world to hear when you've already gone so long with a grossly-unsatisfactory relationship, but the bedroom really does come last.

    Ask me how I know.

    Listen, I've made pretty stellar progress myself in the past 3 months, and I'm only in Phase 2-3. It takes TIME - and a lot of hard work. You've started out the right way, recognizing that you have to do this. Take a deep breath and roll up your sleeves.
  • FromMarsFromMars Member Posts: 111
    ...Again we abandon the attempt to have sex. 

    i turn over and have a small breakdown. Massive sobs wrack my body as the waves of pent up sadness and misery wash through me. I realise just how much she hates me at that point - she can hardly bring herself to have sex with me - I realise then how hateful it must be for her to have sex with me when she feels like that. She is somewhat taken aback by this response. Any attempt to maintain frame is gone now - I am way past that and tears just flood out of me. I can't speak for several minutes. 

    I just wanted to let you know that I did the exact same thing a couple of years ago.  It's nice to read that it happened to someone else and I though you might also appreciate hearing that you're not the only one.

    I'm not sure where it came from.  I'm not usually very emotional at all.  I'm the calm, in control guy, at least externally, even when horrible things are happening.  After one too many backslides and shutdowns I just kind of lost hope.  

    This would never get better...  Why did she hate me so much...  Didn't she care about me enough to see how important this was to me and at least be kinder and more understanding about it... Am I really that disgusting and unattractive?  This is it.  This is all there is to look forward to..  no matter what I do the best I can ever hope for is passive aggressive starfish sex with a side order of shame and guilt afterwards.  I'm never having good, passionate sex again for the rest of my life...  

    Everything just hit me all at once and I just lost it.  I was crying and screaming incoherently.  I couldn't stop.  I think I scared her pretty badly.  That's never happened to me before in my life.  Eventually I pulled it together and life went on.

    FYI, things are much better now.  Not perfect, but better and moving in the right direction.  So there is hope.  
  • CartB4HorseCartB4Horse Southwest USASilver Member Posts: 4,155

    Something that jumps out at me is how often you want sex.  Even if you get some, you want it again and again.  I doubt this will happen when your wife just isn't that attracted to you yet.  That's the bad news.

    The good news is that by changing YOU you can get much better results.  Get to work on becoming better in your wife's eyes.  It will take some time and she will need to see you becoming better for a while for it to sink in.

    I get the wanting to jump into the middle of things and I also want my wife to fuck my brains out but damnit be calm and SHUT THE HELL UP.

    Don't talk about sex.  Don't tell her why you are lifting heavy weights (Start now).  Don't initiate all the time.  Chill man, you will be okay.  Welcome aboard.  Come hear and read other peoples posts, especially about MAPing.

    Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol.  Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....

    “Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl 

  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    OK Stage 1 it is then. I think you're right but was reluctant to accept that it was this bad. She has started locking the bathroom door when showering after I joined her in the shower one time. Further evidence of stage one situation.

    So let's have a look through the Reds... highlighting ones to focus on.

    Stop Slacking off Exercise: This was going great until end of December when I injured my shoulder. I am starting the rehab with physio tomorrow, but this means I won't be lifting weights for a good while. Its a major setback. It also means that I have been at home for the last four weeks, so she has had my brooding, obnoxious presence around the house all the time.  I will resume running and core training fairly soon hopefully. The good news is that I am starting from a good base. Physically I am SR 2-3 higher than her already - it's the emotional dependence and hold she has over me for sex that keeps the SR in her favour. Once I can hit the gym again I plan to take a membership at a local gym so I can go in the evenings. Normally I go to the gym at work, which is a 40 minute commute from our house which rules out use of gym for OI purposes.

    Stop Eating Grains: I started reading about this yesterday. Interesting. Complication here is that she basically is in charge of the catering for the family. She writes the menus, buys and prepares most of the food. I can change what I eat to a certain extent, but to convert the whole family off grains will be massively difficult and expensive.

    Stop Drugging Yourself: Tobacco - no. I used to smoke as a crutch through bad times but have not smoked for over a year. Alcohol is not a problem I don't drink much. I don't drink loads of coffee but quite a bit of tea. I will cut down on this and see what happens. I was planning to go see my doctor and get some more tablets to help me sleep, but they are addictive, so I'll try to hold off on this for the moment.

    Stop Eating Sugar: I don't eat a lot of sugar so I don't think this is a major issue. Even so I can still think of ways to cut down, so will do those. Mostly her home baking and occasional candy bars.

    Stop Eating Processed Food: Again this is not an issue. My wife cooks most of our food from scratch ingredients.

    Stop Wasting Money: Well I made the big step (prematurely it turns out) of separating our bank accounts already. This is now up and running and she get a weekly allowance for groceries and spending. She is still being a little huffy about this, but in the past it's actually something she has asked for me to do, so I think she will actually come around. We now know exactly who is responsible for what and it's my task to pay the other bills and look after the budget. I have a budget spreadsheet that I need to update and check regularly. I think that her being responsible for her own money will put the breaks on her spending at least, although it temporarily seems to have freed up my own. But I have some savings to call on to cover this. 

    Debt Drains: We have no non-mortgage debt. Credit card paid in full each month.

    Stop Buying Junk: We don't tend to buy a lot of junk - mainly kids present which then break or are not played with ever. We have a house full of those. 

    Stop Bankrupting for Success: We have a house we can afford (although we did think about moving to a bigger place but the mortgage required would have been astronomical) and we have modest cars that are paid for. I don't think we are doing this.

    Stop Ignoring Broken Things: Curiously I unconsciously already started doing this. We had a lamp that was broken for ages and i took in into a repair shop a few weeks ago. I'm going to keep an eye on this but not a massive problem. I've fixed some dripping taps and things like that recently, so Myeah.
  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    Stop Displaying Low Value: This is a big monkey especially while I am in the Stage 1 phase. As soon as I "go dark" then I get her asking "Whats wrong?", "Aren't you talking to me?" . I'm trying to stay in a cool frame, and just give polite but limited answers but she kind of sees through this. Seriously this woman drives me crazy sometimes. On the one hand she want "Time to herself" and to not be pestered by me for hugs, kisses and sex. On the other hand she wants me hanging on her every word like a neutered lapdog. Work at this, I need to do *yodaspeak* (Another good yoda quote I like is "Try? There is no try. Only do"

    Stop Emotional Tunnel Vision: Umm yeah. I don't know how this squares with avoiding tests etc. This is probably a massively bad idea but I put Tinder on my phone - yeah there are a ton of other people out there all right. I don't plan on meeting anyone off there yet, but hits are boost for the ego that's for sure.Yeah this is probably a really bad idea.

    Stop Orbiting Hotter People: I don't think this is an issue

    Stop Demanding Pampering: I don't think I demand pampering. I've been expressing my wish to have more sex to her more assertively but I don't think it's demanding. She probably thinks it is. Anyway this is stopping for now.

    Stop Being Lazy: A big red flag. I am pretty lazy. I have got into a bad pattern at work especially where I n totally unfocussed on my tasks. A major point of focus.

    Stop Fighting Dirty: I don't think I fight really dirty. Occasionally. If anything she is far worse at this with her regular passive aggressive snarkiness. This goes along with the reversion to stage one though. I'm in stealth mode and am going to be more compliant for the time being.

    Stop Ignoring People: I've not been ignoring her, if anything quite the opposite. However in the past when things have been bad we have ended up in periods where we just ignored each other for weeks at a time. Stop this in the future then?

    Stop Nerfing Your Personality: My better version has been emerging recently so I will keep this going.

    Stop Fake Relaxation: I do tend to take the phone to the couch when the TV is on and check FB, twitter etc. Then realise I have totally lost track of what is going on in the programme. Try meditation.

    Stop Doing Things You Hate: She likes us to go to church as a family. I don't feel the same way and have been declining to go. However I did agree to go with her last Sunday a couple of days after we had HMS the Friday night. This comes across as a covert contract like this though right? But if she gives me what I want perhaps it's OK to go along with her idea of a happy family church outing. 

    Stop Loving Energy Vampires: Nuff said. This is where I am.

    Stop People Pleasing: I don't think this is a problem.

    Stop Blaming Then About Sex: Got it.

    Stop Faking Sexual Pleasure: Not a problem!

    Stop Outside Sexual Sources: I have recently fallen off the nofap bandwagon. Urgh. That did not last long. OK steel myself take a deep breath and go under. Try to stay down longer this time. No actual human outside sexual sources so keep it that way. 

    Stop Trying to Force It: Kind of hard to realise that she actually detests me right now. Obviously a major red right now if you've read any of my history.  

    Ok there you have it. I'm going to check over this list and keep track of them on my phone. Thanks again for all the help and advice. Even (especially!) the tough love. Such as great forum.
  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    edited January 2014
    FromMars said:
    This would never get better...  Why did she hate me so much...  Didn't she care about me enough to see how important this was to me and at least be kinder and more understanding about it... Am I really that disgusting and unattractive?  This is it.  This is all there is to look forward to..  no matter what I do the best I can ever hope for is passive aggressive starfish sex with a side order of shame and guilt afterwards.  I'm never having good, passionate sex again for the rest of my life...  

    Everything just hit me all at once and I just lost it.  I was crying and screaming incoherently.  I couldn't stop.  I think I scared her pretty badly.  That's never happened to me before in my life.  Eventually I pulled it together and life went on.

    FYI, things are much better now.  Not perfect, but better and moving in the right direction.  So there is hope.  


    Thanks @FromMars. Sounds exactly how I felt. It has passed thankfully.
  • FromMarsFromMars Member Posts: 111
    I think tinder is a bad idea. Probably for several reasons, but mostly because it will likely get you busted. Doesn't it work by showing your picture to all of the other users in your area to see if they're interested? Sooner or later some single friend of your wife is going to run across your profile and quite possibly go tell her. Or at least start gossiping.
  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    edited January 2014
    You're totally right of course. I have binned it (tinder). Great app though for it things go tits up and I end up in stage 7 divorced.

    In other news she keeps talking about booking a vacation. I feel like I don't want to make any financial commitments months in advance at the moment, so I am not doing anything about it. I have not said out loud this is what I am thinking, but sooner or later it's going to cause a problem.

    Also I am now tracking her cyce so when she told me yesterday that her period had started it was not a surprise. I nearly said "Hmm a day early!" but managed to bite my tongue. 

    :-\"
  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    Couple of interesting developments.

    I took the 5lovelanguages test and it came back with Words of Affirmation and Physcial Touch. I left my results on her pillow to read - she just circled the bit that said "Your wife might have a totally different love language" and left it on my pillow.

    Then later on she asked my "Why did you do that - what did you hope to achieve?" and "We know all that already". I did not say much back, but said I thought it would be interesting to see her results. Again the same thing the following morning.

    But later on that day she did run her profile and found our it came back with "Receiving Gifts" and "Acts of Service". So we talked about this and noticed that we were both treating each other in the love languagethat we wanted to received. She gives gifts and performs acts for me, while wanting these in return. I am giving her physical touch and kind words, which is what I want to receive. Huh. So far so good. Except that I then folloed up by asking "So what one act of service could I do for you today". Instead of coming up wth something she would like to do, she went off on a rant about what an insensitive shit I was on Christmas day, when all she wanted was a cup of tea and I wanted sex. I held frame pretty well and went off to work in the yard instead of taking all her shit. 

    Later on I went and cleaned out her car. She came out and joined me - the rest of the day she was touching and kissing me while I carried on with my work.So yeah - interesting. That was one thing.

    The other thing is that her browsing history has changed slightly. Instead of games, shopping and email, she has also been searching about low self-esteem, and self-help for this. She has also tried to figure out how to change her windows account password (she is not that tech-savvy).So I might find myself locked out of her laptop soon, but if she is starting to accept that she also needs to change then I take that as a positive.

    Also my changing to stop eating grains has stimulated her to also improve her diet as well. 

    Early days, but positive changes I feel.


  • mike79mike79 ukSilver Member Posts: 222
    If shes willing to talk about things and search internet about things she is actively trying which must be a nice feeling.
  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    Couple of days after this last post she spotted me reading MMSL forum. She jumped on her own laptop and read a few things on the blog - what to do if you catch your partner reading MMSL and a couple of other introduction posts. It has kind of set us back a bit, because she feels like "You're just doing this because some guy on the internet says so" sort of thing. But after that 11 days ago she has not read up any more about it. As to be expected she has taken a very one-sided and superficial view of the whole thing. To her its all about being selfish and getting what I want at the expense of other people. 

    The other day she told me that she was going to stop being a victim and look after herself - I was half wondering if she had started reading the MAP but no. 

    Anyway onward and upward lets have a spin through my red monkeys..

    Stop Slacking off Exercise: Focus is on injury rehab but have been doing what I can in the gym given I can't lift weights and wont for a while. Leg presses and curls, aerobic and core is getting me toned
    Stop Eating Grains: This diet change has also helped the my weight to start dropping - my waist is shrinking! Wife complaining about this and she is going to extra lengths to highlight all the delicioous wheat based baked goods she is whipping up.
    Stop Wasting Money: She is sticking to her budget and not complaining too much. She is kind of enjoying he simplicity of the new financial system. She has her money to spend on housekeeping and that's clearly separated from the rest of our money.
    Stop Displaying Low Value: My OI is still shaky - sometimes OK but more often than not I still get a little chippy. Focus on this.

  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    Stop Demanding Pampering: I don't really know if I do this so I take it off my llst of monkeys
    Stop Being Lazy: This is going fairly well This weekend we finshed a job at home that has been hanging over us for weeks, since I wrecked my shoulder.
    Stop Fighting Dirty: I am trying 
    Stop Fake Relaxation: Not bad except for... return of porn use.
    Stop Loving Energy Vampires: Its working
    Stop Blaming Then About Sex: Got it. Struggling to STFU though.
    Stop Outside Sexual Sources: Still struggling with online porn - even worse is that I want to look at images of wives cuckolding their husbands. Its exactly as described in the Sex Primer and you can see it in action - the wife actively "Dopamining" another man while the husband actually facilitates. It screws with the mind badly this stuff.
    Stop Trying to Force It: A big one - maybe the biggest. 


  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    So I have been mapping (trying to) for a couple of months. Sex has improved massively in this period, although it is still a major battleground. Her latest thing is to fixate on the "Sex every three days" target that she thinks I have set her after our last heart to heart talk in january where I set my expectations (see origin of this thread). 

    When we have sex it is going really well and she is really into it and having big orgasms, and giving enthusiastic head. Basically acting really slutty and sexy in bed However the following day she is all off with me again. Then if I try to initiate she is like "it's not three days is it. So I don't have to have sex with you. Thats YOUR target".  
  • AngelineAngeline planting seedsCategory Moderator** Posts: 14,500
    This will go away once she is more attracted to you. See the post above for why. Thats a lot of negativity and whininess. Once you can get rid of some of that sludge dragging you down, you'll have less problem with this.
    "Speak your truth." - Scarlet
    Remember to play!
    Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
    Be married, until you are not.

    Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
    ScarletCyrilFiggis
  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    Thanks @Angeline

    Last night was a classic. It was exactly three days since last sex, so she submits unwillingly to sex. I try kissing her and touching her to get her aroused but she is yawning and closing her eyes like she wants to go to sleep in an exaggerated way. It's ultimate starfish. She is lying with her legs clamped shut, Not responding in any way to my kisses or touches. Then she says "just get on with it so i can go to sleep". Followed by "Whats the matter why aren't you hard?" mockingly. "you keep saying how much you want sex but can't even get it up". 

    I bite my tongue not wanting to say just how unattractive her behaviour is to me, which is why I am not turned on in the least. 

    We give up and roll over to sleep still naked. Spooning her I start to get a stirring down below. I fondle her naked body and she does not push me off, so I escalate the action. We do end up having sex, but it is bitter and unsatisfying. 

    This fits with her pattern of wanting me to push through her unwillingness - something she has recently revealed. She *likes* acting totally uninterested at first and getting me to warm her up. Sometimes a switch gets flicked in her brain which kicks her libido into action, but most of the time her rational brain stops her from the activity to get in the mood, because she "doesn't want sex".
Sign In or Register to comment.