Is it me? Am I just shit testing in spite of myself?

Hamster_Free

Hi, and welcome to the ass puckering downhill portion of the ongoing roller coaster ride (or the grueling, choppy, bumpy ascent, whichever you like least)...

a light recap..Things are overall good, and better than they have been, but there's still this thing where he can't seem to take care of his own shit. 

We moved this year, and boxes have been in the all too familiar permastack since the goods arrived.  Wanting to start the new place off on the right foot, I specifically addressed the MBR first in order to build our *love nest*.  It was cozy.  And pretty.  It was a place I enjoyed being, and in all the other chaos, it was a place I could relax and focus on lovin and sleepin even though the rest of the house was buried under cardboard.

Started going through boxes throughout the house, and found MANY for the MBR that had been misplaced.  Redistributed appropriately and put my things away and left his boxes for him.  Let him know, "Hey, all the boxes still in the MBR are yours.  If you could put em away when you get the chance, I'd be grateful."  Went on about the rest of the cardboard jungle.

Two months later (true, significant death in the family occurring simultaneously, so I made allowance):  "I know you've been busy, and I'm with ya on all that--but the boxes are still in the MBR.  Please put your things away and remove the boxes.  I'll put anything you don't want out for pickup when the charity comes by."

A month later: "The charity's coming by again. I can put that stuff you don't want from the boxes out.  If you can get to it on your off-day on Tues, I'll put it all out for when they pick up on Wed."

Him: No movement on the boxes.  "Have you seen my x-insuch shirt?  I can't find it anywhere."
Me:  "Nope."
Him: "I hate that I can't find that.  Did you say you were going to help me look?"
Me: "Nope."
Him: "I HATE how shit keeps disappearing like that!"  Air of poutiness that I'm not helping him look hangs about the place.  Long history of him losing track at things and giving me dirty looks when I can't produce them on command.  (cross reference GUILT TRIPS!!).


Two months later: "I'm really not happy about the boxes.  They need to go, and you need to put your stuff away." 
"I would, but I have no place to put them.  I need to get an antique wardrobe to put my things in since you took up the big side of the closet."  True, I did take the bigger side.  I based my estimate of individual space requirement on how full his closet had been at our last place, and left him at least the same (LOTS of hanging space on his rack, not to mention a 90% empty chest of drawers.  I think I might have snorted a bit when he said that.)  But fine, he needs an armoire.  Antique shopping??  SWEET!

Two weeks later.  No movement on boxes, no antique wardrobe, no nothing.  I say, "Fine.  I hate the look of the place, and the sight of the boxes pisses me off on a daily basis.  I'm sleeping on the couch.  Let me know when you've taken care of this so that I can sleep with you again."

A few weeks later:  Him:  "Just come to bed with me.  I'm getting used to you sleeping without you, you know, so if you don't come to bed, I won't be able to sleep well when you *are* there anymore."
Me: "You know why I'm not there.  Make it happen, and I'll be there."
Him:  "But I need the wardrobe!"
Me: "Whatever.  I'll be on the couch." (Fortunately, the couch is really comfy).

Repeat.

Repeat.

Fast forward to last night.  DH is leaving for work for a month, and needs something very crucial for his work.  Can't find it.   Keeps looking.  Starts panicking.  Tears things apart looking.  Frantically shouts, "Are you going to help me look or what?!"  I help look, but only after I finish what I'm doing.  The elusive thingy remains elusive.  He calls someone else from work in a panic and asks to borrow his thingy.  Someone else says he can pick it up, so off he goes.  In the meantime, I start opening all the (EFFING!!!) boxes and systematically putting things away to make sure its not in any of those boxes.  Am somehow able to find space in his empty dresser and not too full closet to put most clothes away before he comes back (45 mins or less).  Am now seething at the whole situation.  Even more pissed off that instead of enjoying the remaining time before he goes, that the blister in my marriage is forcibly burst open.  I'm feeling disrespected, taken for granted, taken advantage of, and blamed all at the same time. 

Am I just engaging in a colossal shit test here?  Or can I reasonably expect a grown man to put his own shit away? 

Agent_Green

My opinion? He's being pathetic.  From the sounds of it, you weren't being a harpy about the boxes (CERTAINLY not in the beginning, maybe justifiably moreso later).  

Shit test is unreasonable requests or unreasonable tone.  Surely it's reasonable to not put away his stuff for him.  A man can handle his own stuff.

pocketaces

Sounds like a perfectionist. Cant do this before the situation is perfect.

Its a character flaw that he has to work on. I have it too and its a bitch. Getting better at half-assing stuff though.

Friz

Eh, he's lazy. End of story. I know, because I am lazy as well. However, if my wife says, "Hey, this is bothering me...", I get off my ass and do it. It usually doesn't even come to that, but sometimes I need a little prodding.

BoneDaddyJive

It sounds like you are the one who is bothered by it. Why don't you just unpack the boxes? As mistress of the house and FO it is your duty to keep things organized. Side benefits: it is a nice thing to do for him, you will know where everything is, and you can dispose of some shit that surely needs to go. Yes, he is being lazy, but he sees that stuff as low priority.

Notelrac

This goes above and beyond the call of lazyness.  No, he just passive-aggressive shit tested you to hell and gone.  And you failed miserably.  Let me explain why.

For whatever reason, he decided that it was your job to unpack the boxes and not his.  He was "passive" in not making this explicit statement to you.  Why not?  Because it would have led to a big argument which he would have lost.  It is his crap, after all.  Then he went "aggressive" by ignoring all your requests.

He won the month's long campaign for control of your relationship when you emptied the boxes and put his clothes away.  And he certainly deserves victory!  Look at how he suffered during all those nights when he had to sleep without you next to him.

The passive-aggressiveness continued when after you had been on the couch for a few weeks.  He did not assertively ask, "Why are you sleeping on the couch?" or "What would it take to get you back in bed with me?"  Instead, he hinted at maybe how perhaps you might inconvenience him when you eventually moved back in.

You never should have moved out to the couch.  Instead, you should have moved all the boxes he had not unpacked into the garage.  And made a followup threat, "They're going to goodwill the end of the month."  And then carried out the threat.

So, why does he get a Gold Medal in the passive-aggressive Olympics?  What is going on in his background or in your relationship that he is so conflict adverse?

MAPster

I agree with @Notelrac once again. Major douchebag move on his part though but did it on purpose and you failed. Next time, like mentioned above, put a time limit on it and proceed to dispose of his things. Kind of like a child.

I do this all the time with my kids. It is your responsibility to pick up your toys. I'll give you x time, if they are not picked up yet and I have to do it myself they go in the trash. And... They pick them up. BUT I had to show them I mean business so I did throw away a few once.

Hamster_Free

So should i pull em all out again and put them on the curb? I mean, if it's my responsibility to figure out where it all goes, I'm kinda thinking it all goes to someone who can appreciate and use it...that's what the kids learn when they can't put their shit away, anyway..

@bonedaddyjive, when i do that, and something gets lost, the shitstorm is all mine. And his stuff always gets lost. I'm just tired of setting myself up for it. The only reason i put the shit away this time was because....he lost that thingy for work. I's making extra sure it wasn't in any of those boxes by actually removing everything from the boxes. True, i probably should have left it piled on his bed so that if he wanted to sleep, he'd have to put the shit away. What can i say? I's pissed. I wasn't thinking too clearly.

I'm still pissed, now with an added tweak; he asked me why, after all this time, did i choose to put it all away last night and get all pissy with him the night before he has to leave for a month. I can't recall whether my teeth were actively grinding when I replied, "because i was looking for your work thingy."

For what's up with him to pull this crap, I'm kind of thinking it's an overall omega unwillingness to accept responsibilty (as mentioned elsewhere, he's getting better, believe it or not), combined with some latent passive aggression against his mother (i get the feeling that a lot of his hangups with her are transferred to me) with some ADD sprinkled on top for flavor. We had some real rafter rattlers a few years ago that nobody "won" and which generally put bad feelings in the air that we couldn't resolve. Even in MC, he felt blamed and shut down.

I think we both came out of that era with a generally conflict averse stance on both sides (i'm pretty conflict phobic to begin with, which doesn't really help). We both really like each other, and when it's good, it's great, and we both hate hurting each other. But it causes a pretty toxic disconnect on Those Things Which Need To Be Sorted Out...obviously.

I'm pretty damn passive, but have reached critical mass with the laziness and passive aggressive crap, so have gotten more specific about what i need from him...which makes it all the harder when he continues the pattern. When i was pissed because he was or wasn't doing something but I wasn't telling him, it was my fault for not speaking up. Now that I'm getting better about speaking up, and he still doesn't help/offer an alternative solution/provide an alpha solution to my crazy woman-based problems/whatever, it sends me through the frickin roof.

And how do I communicate   I'm kind of thinking it's an overall omega unwillingness to accept responsibility, combined with some latent passive aggression against his mother with some ADD sprinkled on top for flavor. to him without him shutting down?  How do I put the bullshit out in the open, or even just get him to take some accountability for something?  One of his recurring themes is "someone in my family must have run over a Gypsy, because I have the worst luck"...I always think to myself that maybe he'd have a little better luck if he stopped blaming Gypsies and theoretical family members and started owning his own life a little..

Hamster_Free

Notelrac said:

The passive-aggressiveness continued when after you had been on the couch for a few weeks.  He did not assertively ask, "Why are you sleeping on the couch?" or "What would it take to get you back in bed with me?"  Instead, he hinted at maybe how perhaps you might inconvenience him when you eventually moved back in.

He did ask a few times (I've been on the couch all summer).  Each time, I told him I'd made my case, and he sullenly went to bed without further comment.

Re: the inconvenience of sleep--yet another festering boil on the bliss of our marriage..  He's a very sensitive sleeper, and he usually works alternating day and night shifts in varying applications which grossly exacerbates his sensitivity.  As a result, the room has to be a cold, dark, noisy (white noise) tomb, and if he's awakened at ALL during the night (or day, when he's on night shifts), he's *unpleasant*.  Any guesses on how that has played out over the infannt and small child years?  Suffice to say that this isn't the first time I've slept apart from him. 

This is part of the drama I's trying to put behind me when we moved by making the bedroom a happy, cozy place.  Epic fail. 

I know allowances need to be made for people with a handicap--in his case, the handicap is the utter inability to sleep under anything but the most perfect circumstances.  But his perfect environment is a cold, dark, noisy tomb, which is pretty well soul killing for me.  I *hate* not knowing if it's light or dark out when I wake up, and I *loathe* the incessant yelling of the noise machine.  (I'm pretty ok with the cold, though, tbh).  I'm kinda thinking separate sleeping arrangements are the way to go, honestly, but have fears for the implications on my marriage.  It's kind of been viewed on all sides as a temporary arrangement until he could get his shit together up till now, but honestly, I don't see much point in going back. 

excess

I do this kind of stuff to myself all the time. I'll have a chore to do and it'll become a blind spot. It'll be something obvious, like unpacking or washing a dish and I'll just stop seeing it. I live alone, there's nobody to be passive agressive with but myself. It costs me time and money (I've spent longer going out to buy something I already have sitting in a box in my living room from when I moved 6 months ago than it would have taken me to just unpack the box). It was hell with roommates, I'd leave a single dish unwashed on the counter and just stop seeing it. They'd be pissed at me and I'd have no idea what they were so bothered about. It just did not compute. One day the cloud would lift and I'll just suddenly get the urge to do whatever I was putting off and it's done in less than 5 minutes. Sometimes that takes years though.

Be open to the possibility that he might just have some mental glitch, especially around something stressful like moving. The best rule for roommate harmony that I discovered was if you want something to get done then you just have to do it yourself. I understand that marriages are more complex due to years of power plays and weird battle lines but I think for your own sanity you might want to consider adopting that attitude at least for a trial period and see how it goes. If your husband needs help doing something that you think is easy, try being compassionate and help him!

Hamster_Free

@excess, I tried it that way.  I really did.  That's when I was blamed for touching his things and moving them around to where he can't find them, or getting rid of things without his permission.  Not a workable solution, in my mind.

excess

Fair enough. The flip side of the, "just do it rule", is that if somebody else just does it you have to accept how they did it-if you cared so much you should have done it yourself.

Linanati

Does your husband have anything else going on?  Low T?  Depression?  If he has a medical issue that causes that kind of lack of motivation, getting the medical issue taken care of may give dramatic improvement.

thisisjen

You are not his mother...do not act like her...period...tell him when have to you act like His mother..you don't want to have sex with him his mother that makes you not want to have sex with him

excess

@thisisjen

Never, ever, do that. Do not tie your sexual attraction to him (even if it's true) to specific behavior. That's a long dark road to hating with your vagina.

Notelrac

"So should i pull em all out again and put them on the curb?"
No.  That would be childish.  Someone needs to be an adult in the house, since your husband refuses.

I'll respond more at length later today.  In the meantime, I'll ask whether you spend a lot of time looking for things he has misplaced.  Keys, wallet, glasses, other work stuff, etc.  If so, spend an hour or two reading about "Living with a narcissist" and see if it fits.

thisisjen

@excess...no vagina hate here....lots of sex...I just don't mother my husband...I mother my children.....the two do not cross. He has a mother, I am strictly in the wife role. I'd caution any woman that mothering a man decreases sexual attraction for him.

excess

@thisisjen

That's all well and good but you don't fix that kind of problem by playing the sexual attraction card. It's a total relationship killer and it's what leads to the typical blue pill marriage.

thisisjen

@excess I don't understand what you are saying.....no man wants to do stuff that kills sexual attraction....so to know playing mommy kills it for your wife leads you to know not to do it......doesnt lead to blue pill, at least not here. I mommy my kids, I wife my husband, period. I am certainly not saying my way goes for anyone else....but it goes for me.

excess

It's a problem for two reasons:

1. Self report is notoriously unreliable

2. Explicitly changing behavior to please somebody else, especially for sex, is a massive display of low value

It's pretty classic psych 101 that people cannot tell you want they want. When a woman notices attraction for her husband waining the classic thing to do is assume it's because of whatever he's doing that's bothering her the most at the moment even though it's often something deeper. She asks him to change his behavior because it's making her not want to have sex with him, so he complies. Now not only has he not fixed the original problem but he's further lowered the woman's arousal by giving in. And thus the cycle continues. Now she says the next thing on her list of things that's annoying her, he complies, she further loses interest and on and on until affair, divorce or somebody takes the red pill.

When a woman is really into a guy, he can act like a spoiled brat and she'll still fuck his brains out. Just look at Italian men. On the other hand if she just isn't that into it then he can be doing everything perfectly and she'll view him as a loser.

Notelrac

@Hamster_free,
based on your posts, you're not in a marriage with an adult.  You're in a co-dependent relationship with a spoiled teenager.  You cater to his whims, clean up his messes, do not stop his passive-aggresive manipulation, and get upset at him and try and get him to change by talking at him.  Over and over.  This is the definition of "insanity."

"when i [put away or move his stuff], and something gets lost, the shitstorm is all mine"
You are co-dependent when you allow him to blame you for cleaning up a mess that he made but refused to take responsibility for.  So he gets a double victory: he gets to be lazy, and he gets the satisfaction of dumping on you.

The only reason i put the shit away this time was because....he lost that thingy for work.
I don't understand.  Are you saying that he just needed to create a big enough crisis in order for him to manipulate you into doing his work for him?  Because you just taught him what to do the next time you refuse to do something he wants.

i probably should have left it piled on his bed so that if he wanted to sleep, he'd have to put the shit away. What can i say? I's pissed. I wasn't thinking too clearly.
If he does have narcissistic tendencies, any time you show emotion around him -- you're giving him "narcissistic supply."  And he wins.

I'm still pissed, now with an added tweak; he asked me why, after all this time, did i choose to put it all away last night and get all pissy with him the night before he has to leave for a month.
Was he yanking your chain, or did he truely not understand?  In other words, is he self-centered enough, and oblivious enough, that he didn't really know?

I can't recall whether my teeth were actively grinding when I replied, "because i was looking for your work thingy."
And his response was... an apology?
No?
How about a "thank you" for helping him in his time of self-inflicted crisis?
I didn't think so.

Even in MC, he felt blamed and shut down.
Duh.  Because he's in the wrong.  What did the MC think his diagnosis was?

We both really like each other, and when it's good, it's great, and we both hate hurting each other.
Spoiled children and narcissists are really fun to be around.  Until you don't give them what they want.

And how do I communicate... to him without him shutting down?
You, personally, cannot.  All those weeks on the couch, and then you finally unpacking the boxes, has taught him that he can outstubborn you. 

How do I put the bullshit out in the open, or even just get him to take some accountability for something? 
You cannot force someone to be accountable.  Consider this -- if you kicked him out, would he curl up into a ball and die?  Find a relative or someone else to sponge off of?

I always think to myself that maybe he'd have a little better luck if he stopped blaming Gypsies and theoretical family members and started owning his own life a little.
So why haven't you told him?  Because you knew he wouldn't listen?

Each time, I told him I'd made my case, and he sullenly went to bed without further comment.
What would have happened if you had followed him back in, put a box on the bed, opened it up, and yelled very loudly "Put it away!"

the inconvenience of sleep
My feeling is that he does indeed have a sleep problem, but he makes it much bigger than he is.  Why?  So he can get out of doing work and manipulate you into submission.  I'm sure he has a plausible excuse for why he can't wear a sleep mask and earplugs.  Very, very plausible.  Yep.

This is part of the drama I's trying to put behind me when we moved by making the bedroom a happy, cozy place.  Epic fail.
How much sincere buy-in did you get from him on this project of yours?  Oh, I see.  Not that much.