Is it me? Am I just shit testing in spite of myself?

Hamster_Free

@Tanooki, I see where you're coming from.  So, if I were to not be his mother, when sorting boxes from a move into their respective rooms, and upon going through boxes in the MBR and finding some mine, and some his, the non-shit testy thing to do would have been to (correctly, true) PRESUME that he had no intention of putting any of his shit away --*EVER*-- and move the boxes (again) to someplace else in the house where I don't have to look at them.  8-|  I appreciate your perspective.  I'll keep that in mind for the next move; I'll make sure the boxes stay in the yard until he's ready to put them where he wants them.  With luck, someone will think it's a curbside donation and take it all away.  Seems the critical error I made here was in assuming that My Husband And I, moving into a Master Bedroom, wasn't exclusively MY JOB.  And since US moving into Our BR is My Job, and if I complete *all the rest of the house*--the kitchen, the living areas, the kids room, the garage, the tool shed--what, pray tell, is the Man's Role in a military move? Or is it just something that our nations' commanders thoughtfully order every 2-4 years to keep the spouses busy? yeah, I get that I'm the co-dependent here.  That's all been made pretty clear to me.

Tanooki

Hamster_Free said:

@Tanooki, I see where you're coming from.  So, if I were to not be his mother, when sorting boxes from a move into their respective rooms, and upon going through boxes in the MBR and finding some mine, and some his, the non-shit testy thing to do would have been to (correctly, true) PRESUME that he had no intention of putting any of his shit away --*EVER*-- and move the boxes (again) to someplace else in the house where I don't have to look at them.  8-|  I appreciate your perspective.  I'll keep that in mind for the next move; I'll make sure the boxes stay in the yard until he's ready to put them where he wants them.  With luck, someone will think it's a curbside donation and take it all away.  Seems the critical error I made here was in assuming that My Husband And I, moving into a Master Bedroom, wasn't exclusively MY JOB.  And yeah, I get that I'm the co-dependent here.  That's all been made pretty clear to me.

Lol.  Narcisstic, co-dependent, ADD, ADHD, Alpha, Beta, whatever you want to classify it.  At the end of the day, he does some things that may hurt, but he probably does some things that help.  I'm sure you do the same.  You can choose to focus on hurting each other or you can focus on helping each other.

You have clearly chosen to focus on his absent-mindedness, which may seem childish to the organized mind.  However, most absent-minded people are brilliant because they have a lot of things gong on in their head.  So perhaps he is a good provider or an inspiration to others.  Or maybe he's physically stronger and lifts all the heavy stuff.  Instead of demanding that he be more like you, why not just apply your strength for both of you?  Then maybe he can reciprocate with his strengths.  Think about the months of aggravation your marriage could avoided if you had just applied your strength for 45 minutes.

A team is made of an offense and a defense.  They are equally important with vastly different strengths.  "Equality" has most people expecting everyone should be equally responsible for everything.  Better to "complementary," each having different strengths and applying those strengths to your marriage as a whole.  You are clearly a good organizer.  Then go and organize and make that your contribution to your marriage, not a mutual requirement.  Then when he's looking for something, calmly point him in the direction.  It's not being a mother, it's being a partner.

Or don't and try to make him more like you.  Throw his stuff on the lawn and show him how he's not as good as you.  Make him pay for not doing things your way.  That's the kind of tantrum you'd expect from...

... a little girl.

Alecto

@Tanooki If she is working full-time, taking care of children, cleaning the house, etc, why is she expected to also clean up after him?  I can understand a little more for a SAHM because taking care of the family is her full-time job, but if she is working too, why is a wife expected to take care of him? 

I've not yet seen a thread where the wife is lazy and doesn't clean up after herself end with anyone saying what you just did above, that the guy should just suck it up and assume cleaning is his strength and she does something else better.

Athena

@Hamster_Free I do not think you are codependent. It seems like Tanooki is trying to place blame on you for your husband's behavior. I know in my case the only thing I would accept responsibility for was not knowing him well enough before I married him. There is nothing in the world wrong with one spouse expecting the other to perform certain household tasks, as long as they are reasonable. Your request to move the boxes was reasonable. /defense

Hamster_Free

K, so, fair's fair. I whined. I asked the question. @tanooki, you say yes, it is a shit test. Good enough.
For the record, i suck at orgaization, i'm not the best housekeeper, and he has higher standards of how a house should look than i do, but never imparts any of that lovely sense of aesthetics in any way other than to tell me that the house "looks like a crap bomb went off", and that he can never find anything. I don't need equality. I need a partnership. If that means 80-20 housework, 20-80 yardwork, fine. If that means he pays all the bills, and i manage the kids and we split housework, or we split kid care and i do housework, whatever. It's a partnership. But if he pays his half of the bills most of the time, mows the lawn once in a while, and then spends all his offtime playing video games or shopping at Lowe's, while i manage my half of the bills, the kids, the house AND the lawn when it gets tall enough to lose the kids, i'm clearly not the professional wife of my grandmother's generation, because i feel pretty overwhelmed. If those are his strengths, i guess that's fine and all, but not what i need in my co/fo relationship, and judging by the comments here, not what others need either. I have to assume that you naturally bring more to the table than this.

Hamster_Free

As mentioned, he is participating more, now, but it's precious little, only in the last few months, and coming after MANY years of total lack of partnership. Surely, he's working on the formula for cold fusion or warp speed while he's playing his games, but that's not what i need. I need a partner.

neen

HF- just another comment....this idea that we live in a small family of four is fairly new. 

In the old days and currently in other countries extended family is usually close by to help.

I think there are too many resposibilities for both men and women. I do think you are right......we need

a partnership and to negociate the duties. We cannot have perfect houses/careers etc. Kids need to

do more as they grow up as well.

Notelrac

" I don't need equality. I need a partnership."
What happened after the last time you had a conversation about who would be doing which household tasks?  Did he fail to hold up his end of the bargain?  When he did, what steps did you take to remind him he was delinquent?

Tanooki

@Alecto:  I don't see where HF mentions that she works full-time, just that she works from home.  If that happens to be full-time, then that is an important piece of information.

@Athena:  Yes, I am trying to place some of the blame on HF's behavior.  If she caves on his tantrums when he can't find something, then she is enabling his behavior.  Some people, like HF's husband, need to fail before they learn to take responsibility.  And setting up the MBR after a move isn't a household task like vacuuming, mopping, dishes, or laundry.  It's a project, similar to rearranging furniture, hanging blinds, or cleaning out the garage.  Usually, it is initiated by one person, but that person should take responsibility for the job, not force someone else to be responsible for it.  You need to make it important to them if you want that kind of cooperation.  Otherwise, accept the fact that it is important only to you and you are responsible for it's success and failure.

The whole point of MMSL is not to figure out how to change your spouse.  It's about how to change yourself to become the best person you can be.  That personal attitude adjustment will have an effect on others.  But going around blaming other people for not living up to your personal expectations is like blaming someone for not having sex with you when you are fat, lazy, have halitosis, etc.  Focus on changing yourself because that's something that can be accomplished.

Is it reasonable that HF's husband unpack his boxes and put them away?  Of course.  But it's his stuff.  If he's fine with them being in a box, then that's his problem.  If he's not fine with it, well, then it's still his problem.  HF has a choice whether to help him with his problem or not.  Instead, she stuck a bomb in the middle of her MBR and then she lit the fuse.  Now his problem became her problem.

@Hamster_Free:  If you're getting overwhelmed, you probably need some help.  The first thing I did when I bought my house was to hire someone to mow the lawn.  I hate doing it, don't want my wife doing it, so for $40 every other week, a guy comes in and mows the lawn.  Next thing was to get a cleaning service to come in once every 2 weeks to mop, dust, straighten up the house.  That was a little more expensive, but the amount of time my wife and I save is spent on the kids, focusing on projects around the home, and being good at our jobs.  Talk the finances over with your husband and figure out if you can afford some help.

Hamster_Free

@Tanooki, you're right about hiring the help.  Intended to do that last month but beginning of school financial irregularities prevented it.  It's definitely on the menu, though.  Also, I'm in a less emotional place today about the whole thing--I am woman, hear me emote, but I can't sustain the energy forever.  I really do see where you're going with the bomb in the the MBR.  If I had it all to do over, I still can't think of a way to do it that wouldn't wind up with me either doing the whole thing and be pissed about it, or me NOT doing the whole thing and be pissed about it.  

This was all pre-MMSL, so I accept that after 8 years of frustration, I was trying to change my spouse's behavior, and I was trying to make it important to him by boycotting the bedroom (as calmly and unemotively as possible).  I's doing pretty good until he shit tested me with the lost thingy test.  And while I'll take responsiblity for caving on his shit test, I still don't think it was unreasonable to try to make his cooperation in his own house important to him, even if it meant planting a bomb in the MBR.  Something's gotta give--might as well blow it wide open, because standing back and waiting for it to happen hasn't been working too well for me.

I'm all MMSL now, getting fit, working the LAP, and Notelrac's right, the more general availability of my affection has made things work a little more smoothly--but that is a tough facade to maintain when I feel like I'm living with an irresponsible teenager.  It kinda feels like I'm paying him up front with sex in order for him to be more of a man--which comes off feeling kind of whorish.  But whatever, it's faking it till you making it, all about fixing the marriage by changing myself..so here we are.

Yes, I do work out of the home.

@Notelrac, you're going to be *shocked* when I say this, but--that's not something we communicate very well.  Duties have always evolved out of necessity, and who's around notices/does them.  Which means--yup, I notice, I do, he doesn't.  I have asked for help in general (I could really use a bit more help around the house), I have asked specifics (I really need you to clean up your own dishes after you've cooked for yourself)--again, always as calmly and unemotively as possible--but there has been no overall household duty charter.  When I've made requests as listed, that's when he half listens while he futzes with the iPad, does the passive aggressive stop and start of the DVR, and generally makes talking to him as unpleasant as possible.  And then grunts his assent and then never actually completes the task.  Until finally I lose it and send him an email detailing exactly what my issues are (usually written in drafts--the fire breathing WTF!! version, which is then edited to calm, rational "I" statements).  I know he reads them, but he will not discuss them unless I basically stand on his chest and pull it out of him.  YES, LORD, we need to develop healthier communication.

 

Hamster_Free

@MissusP, yes, he's career, eligible to retire next year, but not sure what the next big thing is, so I don't think it'll go that way at this point.  Have your moves mostly been CONUS that your mom was able to come help?  REALLY awesome of her to do that! 

LOL, mine came to visit when my first child was born..here, I's thinking she was coming to help with the baby...nah, she was on vacation and wanted to be shown around the exotic place she probably wouldn't get to if her daughter weren't there to visit..  8-|  

I also have a really hard time asking people to help with a move, but what can I say, I guess I kind of expect my dude to be a little more invested.  I can see he's not an anomaly, though.  *sigh*

Notelrac

YES, LORD, we need to develop healthier communication.
Sounds like the next step in your MAP (marital action plan).  Use sex to bribe him into co-operating.

Someone else posted that they took online self-lead classes.  Maybe they can post links.  You can go to a MC, but I would recommend a mediator or other specialist.  There might be a weekend retreat in your area, or one-night-a-week classes at a community college or civic center.

neen

HF- I feel you're pain.....be sure and give yourself some reinforcement!! Even little

stuff....lipstick,itunes songs,walk,cupcake.......keep yourself happy.

myrtle

I don't know what a shit test is, but if it's his crap... It's his business whether he keeps it in boxes or drawers. He should NOT rely on you to find his various uniform accoutrements, though. If you marry a pack rat, I think that's just a thing you gotta deal with. It IS annoying but I am sure my husband finds my continual "decluttering" wasteful and rude, too. (we, too, have boxes and tubs of junk I can't even identify, going back twenty years. It annoys me but I try not to let it make me crazy. He used to have an apartment with towers of "stufff" and trails in between! Haha)

DrBeta

Update on the adult child, and props to @tanooki. 

The minor effort I made with adult child last weekend inspired SAHM to drag two of us (daughter, me) out to teh garage to reorganize and generally get crap in one bag.

BUNCH of stuff in the van for goodwill later and the garage looks pretty dang good.  SAHM did most of the work, but it helped her that she had company and some worker bees.

Big success.

But it turns out that adult child's stuff is pretty minor.  Most of the crap was actually SAHM's stuff -old furniture, baby toys and crap.  It was hidden from view, but she was taking up lots of space.

No sooner does adult child return than she is on his case to "go thru all his stuff" which now means all of three boxes.

It's exactly this "finish my masterpiece" syndrome.  Adult child has no idea where the heck SAHM Mom's finish line is, and she's saying "A 25-yr-old man should be able to go thru his stuff and throw what he doesn't need away" somehow miraculously forgetting that she only accomplished this herself an hour ago.

When you take over a space, you can't expect other people to act like they own it, too.  They don't.

Point is, there's a compromise in there somewhere.  If @Hamster_Free wanted those boxes gone, then she should not have made some larger MORAL issue out of it.

I know it's over now, 'cause Hamster's boxes are all unpacked.  I'm just saying I think Tanooki got it right.

Hamster_Free

Boxes in a garage are one thing.  Boxes in the MBR, which replace previous years' stacks of clothes which have been washed and folded and only need to be put away--are an entirely different thing.  This isn't a 25 year old man who hasn't gotten his shit together yet, this is a 42 year old man who hasn't gotten his shit together yet.  I've been reading on multiple threads how members have gotten tired of spouse's behavior and just stopped tolerating it, and adjusted their own behavior accordingly.  That is what I was doing until I forgot myself and tolerated it again.

Additionally, with all due deference to your particular situation, mine is not your situation. 

• Yes, I have bitched him out in the past about 'bad behavior' of which I was also guilty--but as soon as I realized that I had, I fixed my own wagon before attempting again to fix his, and apologized for the bitch out when I also was guilty. 
• Beta Jr is still a dependent child of your household, if not literally, than socially.  Mr. Hamster is the head of the household, accountable to his own dependent children to demonstrate leadership through his actions. 
• Mrs Beta projected Beta Jr's mess onto her own.  I did not.  my 5yo asked me why I cleaned my room but HamsterFather didn't clean his--because it's pretty obvious from a casual glance whose stuff is all over the room.

DrBeta

@Hamster_Free I think you've totally got it.

Your situation in the MBR is totally different than Beta Jrs.in the garage.  My personal epiphany was noticing the similarity between your request of your DH and my SAHM's instructions to Beta Jr.

That is, the situations are different, but somehow your initial action was just like a Mom trying to correct a deviant child.

It seems pretty clear now that in retrospect, you'd choose a different way to go.

For my part, you've helped me with a very similar situation with my SAHM, who rearranged the sitting room, thus messing up the couch and coffee table that was my "work-on-my-lap-top-space".  Shortly afterwards, I got a request to put away my papers and books and my whatever-she-thinks-is-messing-up-the-sitting-room.

Instead of caving and being like, "Yeah, I guess I can straighten up." I went a different direction (for me).

I said, "You know, you have an office, and file cabinets.  And bookshelves.  And the kids have desks and closets and shelves. And if I want to work at home, all I have is this little coffee table and a couch, which you took it upon yourself to mess with.  Before you go asking me to put all this stuff away, you have to decide exactly which corner of this house is actually mine to put it in."

A new bookshelf showed up a couple of days later.  It's in a place she can tolerate, and I keep my stuff on it, semi-neatly.

Notelrac

Glad that you were able to work out a compromise with your wife.  Here's a style suggestion for future interactions.  Use more "I-language".

In this case, you start by saying, "I need to work at home.  I need to a space where I can do that.  I realize that you want a nice sitting room.  I am currently using this space.  I am willing to discuss how to meet your needs, but... I need to work at home."

This is a bit dramatic and simplified, and you'd want to phrase it in your own idioms.  But the objective is that you assertively state what your needs are, and what your wants are.  The goal is to never say "You must" or "You should" or "You never".

Joskin_Nodd

@Hamster_Free: "Am I just engaging in a colossal shit test here?  Or can I reasonably expect a grown man to put his own shit away?"

Not a shit test. Reasonable expectation. Except, it wasn't happening, so another approach becomes necessary. There aren't a lot of good ones. The best one is probably just to tackle it and put everything away, and explain when he can't find something that you weren't going to live with unpacked boxes forever, and since he wouldn't take responsibility for them, you did. Not ideal. At the same time, I think he could have lasted until you moved to the next house (at which point, he was have branded his preservation of the boxes a good thing, because, look, everything was already packed when you moved again 10 years later).

My approach tends to be that a thing needs to be done and if I'm in a position to do it, I do it. I don't hold on to it as my partner's problem. This isn't ideal, but it can be fruitless to try and out-wait someone with infinite patience on an issue. 

Another strategy is to force it into a joint task. "Come on, we're going to get this stuff put up. I'm tired of looking at the boxes. Which box do you want to start with?" - "I can't. The stars aren't aligned." - "This box is full of pants. Here. Put these pants in the bottom drawer of the dresser. There is a drawer there for pants." And proceed. 

No ideal solutions to such procrastination. Notelrac is probably got the best one: "You never should have moved out to the couch.  Instead, you should have moved all the boxes he had not unpacked into the garage.  And made a followup threat, "They're going to goodwill the end of the month."  And then carried out the threat."

Or, just take responsibility, do it, and let go of it. Moving to the couch doesn't work. A few other options, mostly responses to his objections: ""I would, but I have no place to put them.  I need to get an antique wardrobe to put my things in since you took up the big side of the closet."

Move all your stuff out of the closet. Tell him to put his stuff in, and you'll work around it. You're letting that excuse stand, because saying: "No, there's plenty of room because of yada yada" is letting his excuse stand. Take away the excuse by letting him get into the closet first. All the stuff you take out, put on the bed. 

" "I HATE how shit keeps disappearing like that!""

It's not disappearing, it's in the boxes you won't unpack. There is no point in my trying to help you find something that's packed in a box you said you would unpack and still haven't unpacked."

"But I need an armoire!" 

"Then, we go get one now, or you unpack into the empty closet, since I put my stuff on the bed, and we'll make it work somehow until you get the damned armoire."

Take away excuses in a big way. With a smile on your face. But don't disappear to the couch. He'll win that. 

Hamster_Free

Take away excuses in a big way. With a smile on your face. But don't disappear to the couch. He'll win that.

Yup.  Sure did.