Discussion on "Nice guys who crack up" on BBC R2

CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
There was a bit on the Jeremy Vine programme on BBC Radio 2 yesterday (Jan17th) about "Men who just crack up".

They go on to describe a typical beta-guy who is running round trying to be all things to all people. Trying to save the world, work a full-time job, be a great dad and loving husband. Then one day they just can't get out of bed. Or they kill themselves. Or they kill their whole family then themselves. Evidently women attempt suicide more than men, but men are better at it. Ugh.

The psychiatrist on the show was all about "Yeah men just bottle it up and eventually it explodes. They need to talk more and be more open about their feelings. They need to stop People Pleasing."

With my newfound MMSL awareness I could not help wonder how many of those guys who crack up are having great sex with their wives. Not many I would wager. if your wife/SO is fucking your brains out every night then the last thing on your mind is blowing them out yourself with a bullet.This topic never made it to the airwaves curiously enough.
Tagged:
Flaming_Man_of_IronTruman

Comments

  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    @RoxyB - well yeah - it's a question of cause and effect. Don't forget that most guys who are in that boat are in a state of utter confusion because they feel like "I am doing EVERYTHING you could possibly ask for and still you won't fuck me?!". We don't actually realise that our people pleasing orbiting DLV type behaviour is actually the reason why she isn't attracted. So we do more of it to try and make her happy. There but for the grace of god go I etc etc...

    I wasn't trying to put the blame onto the sex-denying spouses. Tempting as it is.
  • kivirekikivireki north of HelsinkiMember Posts: 101
    hmm. Let's go there, because I think this is an issue for pretty much every Brit I know - they either go loutish asshole or people-pleaser and there's seldom room on the continuum. 

    Or am I completely off-base here?
  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    I don't know if there are more Brit guys than the average who crack up. Maybe. We do tend to be fairly repressed and our culture is not at all supportive to the alpha frame. 

    There has also been a spate of husbands here who kill themselves and their wives and kids after their relationships or finances went in the shitter. Its pretty horrific stuff, and in the report it always describes how this guy was a devoted family man who love his wife and kids. Something does not add up there. Devoted husbands don't kill their wives.

    I'm not saying that the MAP is the answer to men's mental health problems, but I have to feel that if those guys had found this kind of message earlier on in their downward spirals then perhaps they could have helped themselves before it was too late. 

    I still can't feel much other than contempt for the guys who take that route out though. It's the ultimate failure in my eyes.
  • kivirekikivireki north of HelsinkiMember Posts: 101
    Right. But if Athol's right, then a culture which is not conducive to Alpha in any way, shape or form is medium-term destined for issues like this. The fun bit from here is that no-one will notice and certainly not ask why. I have the feeling the lasting, pervasive inequality of the sexes, leading to everyday sexism, lack of willingness to believe rape victims, the fuckup in terms of sexuality that arises from being a not-far-from-repressive society and the issues related to financial inequality.. this is a bad combination. Very bad.
    The crazy bit is the divorce courts and legal system are still tilted towards man = breadwinner, woman requires protection  - and until the childcare system is thoroughly overhauled, that can't change. Which then contributes to the (potentially perceived) inequality.

    I'll put it another way (I was reading the online edition of the guardian on the way home on the train, there was an article about two-year-olds in schools). Here: 
     - you get a kindergarten place as of 10 months (!!)
     - women are expected to return to work as a result
     - divorce laws are set up so that equal division of goods is not necessarily seen; there's no "family unit" as far as tax is concerned, and there's *minimal* alimony to be paid (child support)
     - which means people marry more and divorce easier

    but equality as far as the sexes go? It doesn't get much better than this. 
    Then again, you have Finnish men, who tend, to be honest, to be Alpha as fuck from the get-go. They don't talk about feelings much, do their own thing, and manly pursuits - well, the country's full of them, from shootin', huntin', and fishin', to making fire every other day in the house, chopping wood and getting the chainsaw out on a regular basis.
    Add a reticence to talk and I think I understand why they could be considered a bit of a catch. 
    Unfortunately, some do seem to lack advanced human social interaction skills ("I bought you a beer on our first date, a meal on our second, it's now our third, so let's go get busy"; she walked away) but make up for it with pure clarity (outstretched hand waved up and down the body with the comment "I wanna fuck you" - first meeting!). So maybe this works. 
    Still, they're two extremes and I'm mildly worried about the UK, to be honest, as it's not looking good from here.

    MAP is not the answer to *all* mental health problems, but I think understanding that you don't have to please everyone all of the time and sometimes you do need to please *yourself* - that's really fucking important and something I was never taught as a younger man.


    ScarletAngeline
  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    I generally don't like national stereotypes too much as I prefer to take people on their merits whatever country they come from. But even I would have to admit there is something in most of them. 

    Sexual relationships are things that are never discussed really amongst men, unless its in a show of male bravado or boasting. I talked to my friends when we were in the pub last time about what their sex life was like with their wives. They freaked out at first. But later grudingly admitted that their married sex lives left a lot to be desired. 

    There is a huge number of undersexed married men who are conditioned to think that this is just normal situation and have no clue that they are being cheated out of their sex lives. 
    AngelineBenfreebirdamblrgirl
  • kivirekikivireki north of HelsinkiMember Posts: 101
    yep, SNAFU. And they have no clue what to do, so they ignore the problem. And the solution seems counterproductive, so they won't try it. Either that or "MISOGYNY!" is screamed. "my wife would kill me if I set up a date without asking her". Hmm... :D

    This is why I'm here with a recognisable handle - I'm handing out the address to several men whom I know, who may need the help and understanding of the forum more than I do right now.

    Get 'em over here. I know I'm ordering the books tomorrow to be sent to one person.... 
    CyrilFiggisAngelineHopeAndHardWorkHildaCorners
  • CyrilFiggisCyrilFiggis UKSilver Member Posts: 157
    @RoxyB don't worry I am not that precious about the topic - and you're right within the UK there is a massive spread of personality types. I have just read or noticed a lot of these kind of murder suicides going on. Maybe is is SSRIthat causes them to go mental - I don't know. 

    It probably is a class thing too. The working class people I know seem to tend towards more alpha and the middle class more beta. Working class males maybe tend towards a different set of problems. Neither group tends to talk much to anyone about it though in my experience. Male conversation does not tend to cover that ground.
  • kivirekikivireki north of HelsinkiMember Posts: 101
    @RoxyB - yes, I dare say there is room. I'm just wondering how much of it there is and how hard boys are pushed to go one direction or the other. And yes, I am overcooking stereotypes, but I'm well aware that they existed at least initially because they represented one view of the situation. 

    I suspect there is a lot of class stuff around this. I grew up in a striving-to-be-lower-middle environment and would have got far more shit at school for being musically talented had I actually ever given a toss. 

    "Male conversation does not tend to cover that ground" - yes, this. And my issue is probably that it rarely covers anything other than inanity, or you're accused of taking either yourself or the situation too seriously. Ask H, I'm 90%+ sure he'll agree. In the mean time, I work with a couple of UK guys in the same team and we're causing a certain amount of stress, as we're a) talking shit b) getting serious amounts of work done and b) pushing back on management stuff, which someone's not used to. I'm asking questions because I still don't understand one of my new areas and that's a massive culture thing going on here. As a nice guy I'd have absolutely no chance; I'd shut up, try not to rock the boat and then worry like hell because I'd be in fear for my job. Now? I ask questions because I want to know the answers.
  • timtim UKSilver Member Posts: 516
    Maverick said:


    @RoxyB said:

    I look around and I don't see a hell of a lot male people pleasers here. Boys are not really taught to be 'people pleasers' at school or at home. They're taught 'if someone hits you, hit them back harder'.

    Most US schools have a zero tolerance violence policy, which means a fight regardless of cause, is recommended expulsion.  So I had to put up with shit for a year or two before they dropped out of HS.   I can't imagine it being any different in the UK.


    Fights were usually dealt with by a quick chat from a teacher, maybe a detention (I left school 9 years a go). Bullying was dealt with harsher but fights were usually just broken up, saying that everyone seemed to ensure it was always a fair fight and hands were generally shook afterwards.
  • Im_a_ManIm_a_Man CanadaSilver Member Posts: 878
    'they need to talk more about their feelings' = Supports males self selecting on behalf of female hypergamy. He unloads his god awful feelings and her desire hits zero. He needs to set boundaries and limitations = He gains respect and it may increase desire in his SO.
  • RebornReborn LondonGold Men Posts: 2,987
    edited March 2014
    @Im_a_man ;
    Well, see my earlier comment above about that. It seems to me that proper boundaries are based on feelings. There are ways and ways of talking about feelings.  I think what we want to avoid is not feelings, but expressing them in a stereotypically feminine way.  Ask any of the enlightened FOs here if they want to be married to a robot. 
    Enneagram type 5 w6. 
    If I offer lots of advice, it's probably really me giving advice to myself. That always seems to happen. 
    Joskin_Nodd
  • SManSMan Silver Member Posts: 1,126
    edited April 2014
    The really dangerous "crack up" cases all involve SSRI's.
    This is so important to remember.

    If you know a resentful, or depressed, "nice guy" who;s been put on Prozac or some other SSRI (in particular the fluorinated ones) or the fluorinated antimalarial drug Mefliquone: keep an eye on them.

    Some anecdotes: I've read some articles and seen a lecture by David Healey, one of the very few academic psychiatrists who is willing to speak out about violence and self-harm among people on SSRIs (he got fired shortly thereafter by Toronto's mental health institute that is funded by Eli Lily)

    He mentioned that he recommends that ERs check for SSRI use as part of triage.

    So I popped in to the ER at my local hospital and asked one of the physicians there if they check for patient SSRI use during triage or at some other point, and he said yes, the triage nurse actually had it as a question on their list, and whenever EMS or the police bring in someone involved in violence or a suicide attempt the first thing they try to find out once they're stabilized is whether they are on SSRIs.

    He said everybody in his department knows by experience that the proportion of people on SSRIs who go postal, or start fights with ER staff, or attempt suicide is way above the average.

    LOL- his department also marks the date of the full moon on their big calendar at the nursing station.  I asked the nurse at the desk if there was more business on full moon nights and she just said "yes, definitely."  What can you say?  I'm not going to go there, but those people just make sure they're on top of what they find by experience is important.

    Also, since Healey's talk, I've seen an interview with Michael Moore, who's obviously heard something as a layman about the psychiatric drugs/violence connection, and since then as soon as the news comes out about another student or young person involved in a mass shooting I try to find out whether they were on psychiatric drugs, and so far, for every case where I've been able to find the information, they have been.

    Also the kid in Florida who flew a small plane into a building was on psych meds.

    The incidence of people on SSRIs committing violence is small, but it's significant.  Anyone on these drugs should be observed closely, by family members ifpossible, and should see a physician if they talk about suicide ideation, or if they become aggressive.




    Angelinesasha
  • AngelineAngeline planting seedsCategory Moderator** Posts: 14,501
    The numerous EMS/LEO friends I have all firmly believe in the full moon phenomena. Thing is, if the general public believes in it, they will behave in ways that prove it.

    On cloudy nights with a full moon, there isn't an increase in violence, childbirth, etc. because people can't SEE the full moon.
    "Speak your truth." - Scarlet
    Remember to play!
    Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
    Be married, until you are not.

    Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
  • CrashaxeCrashaxe Partytown, which is wherever I am.Gold Men Posts: 1,243
    Angeline said:
    The numerous EMS/LEO friends I have all firmly believe in the full moon phenomena. Thing is, if the general public believes in it, they will behave in ways that prove it. On cloudy nights with a full moon, there isn't an increase in violence, childbirth, etc. because people can't SEE the full moon.

    Oh hell yes. The full moon is true. I saw it every month. Weird shit happens when the moon is full.

    And all hell breaks loose if anyone says the Q word.

    “I’m going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years.” General James Mattis, USMC

    Angeline
  • BenBen Silver Member Posts: 3,651

    I'll give the mainstream media / feminism this much credit: they've got half the equation right.  No one will be quicker to tell you that "a woman doesn't owe you sex because you're nice to her" than a feminist, and that's absolutely true.


    What they DON'T go on to tell you is the corollary: you don't owe niceness (in the "Nice Guy" sense of being a doormat) to anyone.  Not the woman you're fucking, and CERTAINLY not a woman you're not fucking.


    And you know what?   Why SHOULD they tell you that?  It's not a woman's job to teach a man how to set boundaries and stick up for himself.  It's a man's job.  It's why boys need their fathers or, failing that, some strong male role model to teach them how to be men.


    ---

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
    BlackwulfAngelineAlexZ
Sign In or Register to comment.