Biblical thoughts on divorve and sexless marriages

Cowboy

Many places in the New Testament have very specific instructions on divorce.  Matthew 19 is typical:

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."

Other verses -- Luke 16, Matthew 19, etc. -- say pretty much the same thing.  To me, this is pretty clear:  you can get divorced, but you can't get remarried, unless your spouse is unfaithful.  A lot of people take this to mean you should never get divorced, but I think the real hook there is remarriage, but I digress.

I have a pretty traditional view of my marriage vows.  I went before God and a lot of relatives and promised to have one woman for the rest of my life.  I've kept up my side of the bargain.

Unfortunately, I was in a "sexless" marriage for many years, and even now my wife is still fighting to avoid physical contact with me.  It's torturous.  I have, by any human measure, been more than patient, and more than specific in what I want from her.  In the old days, there was definitely the expectation from a women, but she's not really into "respecting her husband" (Ephesians), either.

We could be heading towards the "A/B" speech sometime this year, and I suspect that is really the only way my wife will truly come to have a real marriage with me.  Unfortunately, with that choice she may very well choose "B."

Even with a traditional abhorrence for divorce, I think the only option if things go that route is for me to find someone else.  It would make no sense for me to get rid of one woman because she won't sleep with me in order to live a life of abstinence.  I know what the Bible says, but clearly my wife isn't holding up her end of the bargain.  In the primer, Mr. Kay gives a good example of a guy who orders cable.  In one case, the cable company charges him, but hooks it up and someone else's house.  In the other, the company still charges him, but never shows up at all.  In either case, the guy is paying for the cable, but he's not getting the proper service.  I think, in this case, the same logic would apply.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Kathrynthegreat

No such thing as sexless marriage in 1st-century Judea. I often wonder what Jesus would say if we sent him down in 21st century America.  

Cowboy

simplegirl said:

Oooo theology!  <:-P

So why isnt she having sex? Bible never says that she is contractually obligated to put out when she doesnt feel like it. If you want her to want sex, then stroke her responsive desire and remove the road blocks.

That aside, I agree with our sex therapist. Any problems you created wont be fixed by going somewhere else. Your idea of divorce bc she wont have sex with you smacks of impatience IMHO. The only times I have A/Bed with leaving as an option were over special things related (at least in my mind) to the list of okays. If he choose to not take care of his medical, I considered that abandonment because his poor health kept him from emotionally engaging with me and being physically intimate with me (even basic touch). And the other thing being his treatment of me, as it was in a way that came way too close to verbal/emotional abuse than I am comfortable with. I try to be creative with my A/Bs as our therapist encourages (she is catholic) making neither option a divorce. She and I feel that divorce solves nothing. It actually creates a ton of problems, especially regarding kids (money, scheduling, dating, two houses, etc). She advocates temporary separation as a wake up call instead of divorce. The idea being to start over versus burn bridges.

I'm not going to disagree that divorce is a miserable option.  My parents divorced, and I know firsthand all the problems that go with it.  However, I've been patient.  We had sex less than ten times a year, sometimes a lot less, for more than ten years.  I've been trying, week in and out, to solve that for more than three.  (I found the MAP about nine or ten months ago).

Right now, my wife is actively fighting the MAP.  She doesn't want to give up control, I think.  There is a very real possibility she will never accept having sex with me more than a bare minimum without a credible threat of me leaving.

If one partner just will not cooperate, I don't think there is an alternative.  I hate to say this, and I hope you don't think less of me, but some days my motivation is the thought that one way or another I will get to enjoy sex again.

redheaded_woman

Yeah, but in your case it's not just a "sexless" marriage.  It also seems, from my far away seat in the interwebz, an emotion-less marriage.

ETA - or at least not emotionally fulfilling to you.

Natalie_Lorin

Ahem -"Do not deprive each other." She's obligated to put out. She just won't like you if you point this out. She's pretty clearly at fault though.

Mr_Brown

My wife and I are going to go to a "Weekend to Remember" in a couple months, recommended by our counselor from church. Since the recommendation I've been listening to some "family life" podcasts.

It's a lot more red pill than I thought. I'm actually looking forward to this opening her eyes to some of the ideas. It's kind of tough to be specific but the parallels are there. You might want to look it up and captain a Christian marriage getaway weekend.

My counselor basically asked if I was a good leader and husband. Wife's answer was yes, then why deny him 10 minutes every couple of days. He reiterated going to bed at the same time. Just like dread game sometimes you need to get some outside help...

One of the counselors main points is that by denying a good husband sex you are inviting the devil into your marriage.

Rico

Be sure to report back on that @Mr_Brown - I'd be interested to know how it went.

liquid

Two things.

1 - is your wife also a Christian?

2 - do you believe that her avoiding sex has more to do with control issues than attraction issues?

TPoke

Remember divorce is not the only big bad club in the bag as you get later into your MAP. You should consider running some serious dread before you consider divorce.

Nomad

I'm in the same boat as you, WBAC.  But playing the "Bible says so" card is going to get you nothing but cold, emotionless, starfish, duty sex at best, and that's assuming that she even "submits" to it in the first place.  Is that really what you want?  As tempted as I am to remind my DW of this, she knows full well what the Bible/church has to say on the matter, and I'm willing to bet that your DW does, too. 

I could easily give in to impatience (not to mention blue balls), but I know that it will do nothing but sabotage what I have built with my MAP thus far, and I've worked too damn hard to settle for anything less than the real thing now.  Stay the course, man!

Rapunzel

Nomad said:

I'm in the same boat as you, WBAC.  But playing the "Bible says so" card is going to get you nothing but cold, emotionless, starfish sex at best (and hating you with her vagina at worst).  Is that really what you want?  As tempted as I am to remind my DW of this, she knows full well what the Bible/church has to say on the matter, and I'm willing to bet that your DW does, too. 

I could easily give in to impatience (not to mention blue balls), but I know that it will do nothing but sabotage what I have built with my MAP thus far, and I've worked too damn hard to settle for anything less than the real thing now.  Stay the course, man!

I've had plenty of sex because the Bible says so and not because my husband played that card but it did seem to be in every Christian good wife book I read. This starts a nasty cycle of guilt and resentment. I only wanted sex less which only added to the guilt. Also as said above the resulting sex is really not much fun, it's called duty sex for a reason. One of my favorite things Athol says in the Primer is something like, your wife can make herself have sex with you but she can't make herself want to have sex with you.

Mr_Brown

&Rico said:

Be sure to report back on that @Mr_Brown - I'd be interested to know how it went.

I plan on it.

FormerNiceGuy

I think I'd like to explore this idea (I've been exploring it myself, even though I don't WANT to divorce my wife).  I think a spouse who won't have sex with his/her spouse IS being unfailthful.  The Bible say (I Cor. 7:2-5) that a husband's body belongs to his wife and vice versa so you can only deny each other "by mutual consent" for a time and then must come back together.  She's not being faithful to what she says she believes.  Also, the promise in marriage is not to have sex with others AND to have sex with each other.  Violating either of these is a violation of the marriage covenant.  Finally, isn't living in the same house, but in no other way being married much more like abandonment than it is like marriage or even dating?  

Don't give up just yet, but she's being unfaithful to you, her vows, and what she says she believes from the Bible, so I think you have grounds for divorce and remarriage (the Greek work pornea (translated from the Gospels as unfaithfulness) means more than having sex with others, in my opinion).  

Your best shot at a fulfilling sex life is with your wife (btw, I haven't had sex with my wife in 18 months despite my initiating).  Would you trade this next year for the possibility of having the version of her that enjoyed sex back?  Stick it out.

FormerNiceGuy

Actually marriage is a contract (perhaps covenant is a better word).  It always has been.  Just as having sex with someone else is a violation, so refusing to have sex is.  It's no less serious.  The Apostle Paul said what he said in I Cor. 7 for a reason.  Ultimately, it's our responsibility for whether we give in to Satan's temptations, but how is it love to refuse to do something that will help someone and which you're instructed to do so that the other person isn't tempted?

Now, don't get me wrong, don't use scripture as a club to beat her into submission.  That's not going to work.  I just mean that if you do everything you can and after years of being the best spouse you can be she still refuses you, know that you've done your best and didn't quit easily.  

If you're a good Christian man, who loved his wife sacrificially for years, but she never repented from this sin, didn't even acknowledge that it was a sin and a violation of her marriage vows, you can at least be comforted by the fact that you did everything possible despite the fact that she abandoned you sexually.

Still, don't give up.  You've got to act like there is no plan "b".  That resolve might be part of her healing, at least that's what I keep telling myself.

Cowboy

There are so many good questions here, I will try to respond in more than one post.

redheaded_woman said:

Yeah, but in your case it's not just a "sexless" marriage.  It also seems, from my far away seat in the interwebz, an emotion-less marriage.

ETA - or at least not emotionally fulfilling to you.

@Redheaded_woman, it really isn't emotionally fulfilling.  A lot of the advice to people on here is to "withdraw Beta" when you get turned down:  no cuddling, no smooches, etc.  My wife really isn't interested in that kind of Beta, either.  Her favorite activities at home are all solitary; right now, for example, she's spend the last two hours under a blanket watching TV by herself.  If I go in to see her, she won't even acknowledge that I'm there.

Cowboy

liquid said:

Two things.

1 - is your wife also a Christian?

2 - do you believe that her avoiding sex has more to do with control issues than attraction issues?

@Liquid,

1. In short, not really.  Several years ago, my wife described herself as a "Christmas and Easter Christian who doesn't go to church on Christmas or Easter."  I often take the kids to church by myself.

2.  Yes, at this point I think it is primarily an issue of control.  I think I have seen her ogling me a few times recently (though I still have work to do), and with even small amounts of alcohol she is all over me.  When I initiate, she sometimes looks like a woman who's struggling not to give in.  It's like we're in high school and she doesn't want to go too far with her boyfriend.

Cowboy

simplegirl said:

She isn't at fault for not wanting sex. And bible doesn't say if she breaks the guidelines you can divorce her (even if she does it for 10+ years). It's an instruction not a clause in a contract. I totally agree with @rapunzel. You are destroying what you are trying to save when you force her to put out due to obligation. @mandrill had some great insight to why your map hasn't got you where you want to be yet. Your effort does have to be effective. Otherwise you could be napping for 5+ years with no success. Easy to blame it on her when it's lack if effective action that is the cause. I personally think it takes longer to fix than cause. Fixing requires identifying what you did wrong and that's a learning process that can take a loooong time. If we knew the right way, we prob would have done that the first time.

Ahem -"Do not deprive each other." She's obligated to put out. She just won't like you if you point this out. She's pretty clearly at fault though.

@Rapunzel, @simplegirl, @nomad, I'm not going to dispute that I can't force attraction.  I can't make anyone "want" anything.  And no, having starfish sex for the rest of my life doesn't sound like a good bargain to me.  

On the other hand, I do think there is an implied agreement in the marriage vows.  By agreeing not to have sex with someone else, the flip side of the arrangement is that husband and wife will have sex with each other.  I don't think it's fair to ask someone to forsake everyone else, but not be able to make love to your own spouse.  I could "choose" to not show up for work tomorrow, just because I feel like it.  I can't make myself want to go to work, after all.  I wouldn't blame my employer, though, for choosing to fire me.

The appeal of the MAP is that it may allow me to increase her desire, so she will want to have sex.  That is what I am aiming for, but in the end she is the one that will have to cooperate.

Cowboy

Mandrill said:

Natalie_Lorin said:

Ahem -"Do not deprive each other." She's obligated to put out. She just won't like you if you point this out. She's pretty clearly at fault though.

I'm not sure saying "God says 'Give it up'" is the best way to resolve this.

I will say several things unto you. You've only being Mapping ten months, whereas you've got ten years of problems behind you. I don't believe the facile rule that it's one month of mapping to one year of problems. Sometimes things take a while to resolve. While MMSL isn't the only way to fix marital issues it seems to be the one that doesn't advocate become a supplicant to your wife.

Whether marriage counseling via the church has any worth probably depends on your particular church, and how much your wife takes their message to heart. If she's going through the motions, it's worthless. In my particular church I met the couple that ran the marriage group, Joe and Jill. Joe is in finance, Jill is a professor. Joe relayed a story about how he had lost his job for one year and how it helped their marriage because he and Jill spent so much more time together and he was more involved at home. Jill rolled her eyes.

I recall you mentioning that she gets very upset with you when her parents are over, as if she feels that you're not meeting her notion of their expectations. What is their marriage like? How was their relationship when she were growing up? Maybe that's the model for her idea of marriage.

Her parents have a pretty lousy marriage.  Her dad is a super-beta wuss that waits around for her mother to tell him what to do.  Until fairly recently, her mother treated her dad like last week's garbage.  I don't doubt that this has led her to believe there is nothing wrong with the state of our marriage.

You say her perception of her sex rank it unrealistically high. Do you neg her? I think Roissy has a post about using negs in a LTR. Do you tease your wife at all? On the other side, she's constantly looking to betas and social media for validation, do you ever compliment or make her feel special?

I used to give her compliments all the time, but they didn't help.  They were just big displays of low value.  Since MAP-ping, I've cut the compliments way, way back.  Lately, I've tried to give her a simple, one-time affirmation when she does something nice or special:  "Nice dinner.  Thanks for making it."  or "I like your hair up like that."

My last comment is that your first post was regarding to her getting attention from a personal trainer and how enthusiastic she was about that. Your though was that it was a muscular guy putting his hands on your wife and her enjoying the attention. But it's more than that, it's a muscular guy giving her attention, putting his hands on her, and telling her what to do. If you taking control more at home has relieved her stress and lessened her OCD-like behavior, maybe she would respond well to you being more assertive toward her. Are you a muscular guy telling her what to do and directing her? Why not?

I wouldn't usually suggest that, however you've said elsewhere that when you upped the alpha and really took control your marriage improved and some of your wife's peculiarities were reduced. Have you thought about really upping it in the sense that you're domineering? Limiting phone/internet use, telling her 8-9:30 is time you spend together, directing when she does certain things? She seems to respond well to ritualized structure.

I've come a long way to taking control of things, and for the most part, my wife responds well to it.  Every so often, though, she decides to fight against it as hard as she can.  My theory is that when she's not thinking about things consciously, she really likes me being the assertive Captain.  Her response just flows naturally.  However, once she realizes that she is losing control, she snaps back into venomous bitch mode, and tries to wrest the Captain's chair away.  At that point, I have to shift my behavior into "stopping obnoxious tantrum" mode.

Cowboy

I should probably add to all this that a lot of my wife's disrespect and obnoxiousness is a lot better than it was, though that may not seem apparent from what you read now.  About a year and a half ago, I was probably in the same boat that DrStrangeLove was about three months ago, for those of you familiar with his story.  I think he's "blowing things up" faster than I did, but in hindsight I am glad I have taken the time to try and take this at a natural pace.

My concern now is that progress just seems to be stalling.  She's actively fighting the MAP now.  I've stuck with her so long, I feel that I owe the both of us a chance for the MAP to work for us, but there is a distinct possibility it won't.  I am 100% committed to the idea that marriage is a life-long commitment, but I'm not getting a fundamental benefit of it.  

WildMan

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simplegirl said:

Oooo theology!  <:-P

So why isnt she having sex? Bible never says that she is contractually obligated to put out when she doesnt feel like it. If you want her to want sex, then stroke her responsive desire and remove the road blocks.

 

1 Corinthians 7:5 "Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so you may devote yourselves to prayer."

 

I don't see any fine print saying "You can go ahead and tell him no, honey, if you're not feeling like it."

 

It ain't pleasant, I'm not pretending it is - I just don't find God giving women an out.

WildMan

WannaBeACowboy said:

 I've stuck with her so long, I feel that I owe the both of us a chance for the MAP to work for us, but there is a distinct possibility it won't.  I am 100% committed to the idea that marriage is a life-long commitment, but I'm not getting a fundamental benefit of it.  

You and me both