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Comments
The whole issue of hypergamy is exactly why the Word tells women to submit, honor and respect their husbands, to learn in silence with full submission, to not teach or have authority over a man, and to respect and honor even those husbands who are not Christians and not obedient to the Word.
I frankly believe that if more women obeyed and observed these commands - especially if they are Christian women married to Christian men - they would see their husbands differently, not as equals but as heads, as leaders, and as authority figures. If they could stop worrying about whether or not they feel like it and just DO it, they would see their husbands correctly in light of Scripture.
But I believe women would also get what they want. On the rare occasion that my wife does look to me for leadership and verbalizes it, I feel like a million bucks on the inside, and immediately charge at whatever it is I need to do with enthusiasm and energy. A word like that from a woman will make most men begin to rise, gird their loins and growl like the warriors they're made to be.
Threads like this make me want to go back to MGTOW.
Jesus himself very clearly said divorce is only allowed in case of infidelity. However, in the 1st Century the man could just take another wife and ignore his frigid betrothed- or take her against her will with no repercussions. In todays world I almost think Jesus would not be totally opposed to spinning plates for sexless married guys. OK, that is me projecting but IT IS a violation of the marriage agreement! Unreasonable denial of sex to a spouse IS a sin. It is NOT always the man's fault. The guy is MAPing and becoming a better man and the wife is resisting him every step of the way. Jeez.
I don't want to shock anybody; I know we don't hear this very often- in society or on these boards because when a man doesn't get sex it is because his wife is hurt most likely over something the man did or did not do- when a woman doesn't get sex it is because the man is not taking care of his health.
I don't know your story but I cannot understand why the default assumption is that it is entirely YOUR fault. Wannabe I agree with you COMPLETELY. IMO your wife is using your religious beliefs against you in a cold, cruel, deliberate, and very calculated way. I am so sorry. I wish there was an answer and I wish I could help you but I don't think anything is going to change until you convince her you really are willing to go down that path. I am also Christian but as sure as the sun shines I would walk out that door if my wife denied both sex and affection for an extended period.
My interpretation is that you can't leave your "wife" except for infidelity. What you have right now is not a "wife."
OK - I realize that was no help. I am sorry.
ETA: I do wish one thing led to the other. That he would be a better man and more loving as I became more sweet and respectful, but I have not see this in my marriage.
If I take away the directive that a women should submit to her husband, but leave in place other restrictions, what do I get? I don't want my wife to sleep with me because she thinks she has to, but sometimes acceptance of limitations in life can make them more enjoyable, as I think @liquid was saying. If I accept that work will be something I have to do, I can take steps to ensure I do something I like, and also take some pride in it.
I'd like to start down the slippery slope of taking into account who was writing and when. That way, husbands could say, "I know the Bible says husbands should love our wives, but she's a rhymes-with-witch and I want to go bang Miss What's-Her-Name." After all, perhaps marital love itself is an antiquated notion that should be replaced. But what do you suppose are the chances of preachers and priests standing before their congregations and telling their female audiences, "If you want him to love you, you had better be lovable."
(I realize that that would actually be good advice ... I just think we all know what women, especially American women, would say in response.)
Men are not without options either, it's just that our "options" still carry consequences (custody loss, child support, jail time and anger management) while women's carry benefits (custody, child support, freedom and a new guy to bang).
I don't even know where to start here. Maybe with the generalization on women, and especially American women? Because only women (esp. American ones) fail to do their best in marriages and fail to make themselves lovable of course. . It couldn't possibly be you projecting your wife and relationship problems on the female population at large, could it? As far as the consequences/benefits of divorce for each sex. I can think of women who got a raw deal in a divorce, and men who got a pretty sweet one including exactly what they wanted (sexual freedom and less kid responsibility). It goes both ways.
I am a ridiculously opinionated, independent (only child here!), headstrong, educated, career accomplished 35 year old woman. I show no signs of a submissive meek personality in general. However, I am *very* submissive toward my husband of 13 years. I do everything he asks, I defer to his decisions if we don't agree, I keep my hair and clothing to his preferences. I have never given a "hard no" on sex. I actively seek ways I can please him in and out of bed. And if I had a dollar for every time he TOLD me he was "in charge" or that I was obligated to submit, I WOULD BE DEAD BROKE. There has never been such a discussion between us. He became the leader by being an effective leader. A man who proves he is competent, unselfish, and has a pair can get even a smart, feisty, independent woman to follow graciously without ever having to drop the "but God says you have to obey me" hammer...
If your wife is fighting on accepting you as the leader, you need to examine why. Acting like a good leader with his shit together goes a lot further than telling your wife repeatedly that she is obligated to submit to you.
Yes, well, I wasn't the one who chiseled it in the pages of the New Testament ... if women in general have be told to respect their husbands by the Holy Spirit then I would say it ought to be women who need to examine "why." As a military vet I totally understand the difference between lousy leaders and good ones, but it didn't change the fact that I was subject to and obligated to respect their authority in either case.
Besides, there are men the world over who act like good leaders with their sh-t together and their wives still disrespect them. That is why the Bible is loaded with proverbs and warnings about letting women have free rein.
I never mentioned anything about rape. I said that if women should not be obligated to obey the command to respect their husbands, then men should not be required to obey the command to love their wives. I think we probably agree on that.
Also, I agree that people are different now, but Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, according to Hebrews. He would not have given this command to women three different times in three different books through two of the most respected and obeyed apostles in all of Christendom if he did not observe a sinful tendency in the fairer sex to be disrespectful and devious whether their men were lousy leaders or good ones.
For a good example of this, observe the disrespect shown by Michal, daughter of Saul, to King David when he returned home from a great military campaign dancing like a fool before God with his schlong exposed - this is the King of Israel, an extremely successful, powerful, athletic and gifted alpha male with all the game in the world - and she still sneered at him and spewed disrespectful remarks at him. If David couldn't get no respect, the rest of us shouldn't be expecting it either - and we should remind them that they are in violation of the authority they claim to be under if they choose that path.
To answer your question, asserting my sexual privileges under the Bible does not work, but that is not solely because I am not an attractive male in my wife's eyes. It is also because I am married to a fallen, sinful human female who is a descendant of her first mother, who joined eagerly in the rebellion against God. This (to me) is why portions of the NT seem quite harsh and stern with women when compared with today's standards - but the more I understand about how differently they view concepts like honor and duty, the less surprised I am that Paul and Peter had to write them.
Submission to husbands as main tool in the wifely marital toolbox would only perpetuate cycles of procrastination, impulsivity, bad decision-making, and even abuse in the worst case.
There's the kind of respect we should pay to everyone, a basic acknowledgement of the intrinsic value every human has. This encompasses treating people decently, politely and fairly, regardless of race, sex, mental capacity, religion and so on.
And then there's the kind of respect that has to be earned. No one's entitled to this one, but everyone can work hard to receive it.
Leadership and authority are closely tied to this kind of respect. If you have to order or force people to follow you, you are not a true leader, but a bully.
If you want us to be unapologetically feminine, be unapologetically masculine.
Wives are told to respect - one version has it " the wife must see to it that she respects her husband." Husbands are not told to see to it that their wives are respectful.
Husband are told to love their wives - as they love themselves, as Christ loved the Church. What kind of love is that? Giving her whatever she wants and being a yes man? No, that's not Christlike. So - how do you love her? How do you show it? Spend some time working that out and becoming the right kind of husband.
It takes work to respect, to submit. I specifically keep track of things - What my husband does right, what I appreciate about him, what I admire about him, etc. I remind myself of these things when I am tempted to treat him like a moron...and I apologize when I fail. It is part of my Map.
What are you doing to love your wife?
@saluki, I agree that we can't let people follow EVERY biological urge. That would be chaos. I think the model that we had: Capt/FO, people marrying once, people avoiding sex until marriage, served the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Sure, it wasn't perfect, but nothing involving people is. And, yes, you can make a case that cheap birth control and a wealthy society, etc. Make this kind of model less necessary. But I think it was based on an attempt to balance human nature with human capability.
As someone has said, we used to tell men to be gentlemen so they don't treat women like sex objects. We told women to keep a rein on their tongues so they wouldn't become spiteful gossips and nags.
@Katt - I'm afraid I find too many Scriptures declaring an unabashed and ordained hierarchical relationship by no less than God the Father to accept the egalitarian premise that a man must prove his worthiness for a woman to follow. I'm not arguing that it is a reality we must observe in the post-post-modern world. I simply refuse to accept that it is a just one, or that it cannot be different through genuine obedience to the Word.
Since you mention Christ's example analogous to the husband's role, may we step back a moment and consider his example analogous to the wife's? Christ also lived in perfect submission and obedience to a Father who abandoned him to a bloody, agonizing death on a cross to save a race of beings 100% deserving of eternal damnation, most of whom couldn't care less. Does that fit your definition of being "worthy of following"? It doesn't fit mine - and I put my life on the line for my country in combat for a similarly apathetic result.
My point in arguing these and other Scriptures is that irrespective of how we feel at any given moment, both of us are right. A husband has no business not loving his wife, whether or not she is unlovable. And a wife has no business disrespecting her husband, whether or not he is respectable. But only one of these is emphasized, and in some cases bellowed, at the XY half of the church these days. The other part is taught in hushed tones, perhaps once a year, that immediately emphasize all of the exceptions women can claim rather than the duties they must fulfill - not to mention that there is no accountability for failure to comply.
Which is why I have turned to the MAP - this stuff simply isn't taught in church.
Yes, but only one of us is ordained to household headship. A husband's dereliction of his duty will not be blamed on his wife; a wife's refusal to submit will not be blamed on her husband.
"The head of every woman is man, the head of every man is Christ, the head of Christ is God."