Biblical thoughts on divorve and sexless marriages

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  • WildManWildMan WAMember Posts: 114
    Katt said:
    I don't even know where to start here. Maybe with the generalization on women, and especially American women? Because only women (esp. American ones) fail to do their best in marriages and fail to make themselves lovable of course. . It couldn't possibly be you projecting your wife and relationship problems on the female population at large, could it? As far as the consequences/benefits of divorce for each sex. I can think of women who got a raw deal in a divorce, and men who got a pretty sweet one including exactly what they wanted (sexual freedom and less kid responsibility). It goes both ways.

    @Katt, the statistics don't lie. Look at the divorce rate in the US versus in the Third World; it's not even close. Look at the stats on who initiates divorce - it is (not overwhelmingly, but by a clear majority) women. In the divorce courts, the default decisions favor the mother when it comes to custody, and women do not have to pay child support if they lose. They are backed by a horde of liberal attorneys in every city, town and hamlet, who are in turn backed by a legal system designed and maintained by politicians accountable to a female vote.

    Now you can attribute this to however many factors you want, but American women are the freest, most independent women in the world, and thus they are also the most irresponsible, at least statistically. I don't know if you've ever lived anywhere outside the US but there are parts of this world where if you told women there what you girls can get away with here, they would fall over backwards in shock. And I'm not just talking about Saudi women.

  • WildManWildMan WAMember Posts: 114
    liquid said:
    I strongly suggest that you stop focusing on what your wife ought to be doing, and start focusing on what you ought to be doing.

    Wives are told to respect - one version has it " the wife must see to it that she respects her husband." Husbands are not told to see to it that their wives are respectful. Please tell me who is? God doesn't seem to be too concerned with it, and the church could care less. 

    Husband are told to love their wives - as they love themselves, as Christ loved the Church. What kind of love is that? Giving her whatever she wants and being a yes man? No, that's not Christlike. Do you mean by this that confronting her and refusing to comply with her every demand - which you just told me in the preceding paragraph is not my job - actually is?

    It takes work to respect, to submit. I specifically keep track of things - What my husband does right, what I appreciate about him, what I admire about him, etc. I remind myself of these things when I am tempted to treat him like a moron...and I apologize when I fail. It is part of my Map. Wise.

    What are you doing to love your wife? It's having done all of the things that she says she loves and still being unwanted in bed that have driven me to distraction. It's not "what are you doing to love your wife" that you should be asking - it's "why is it when a man does the things his wife says make her happy, she still doesn't want him?" But of course, we already know the answer to that.

    liquid
  • WildManWildMan WAMember Posts: 114
    Maria said:
    You realize that women are married to fallen, sinful men who are descendants of their first father who rebelled against God, failed at leadership and refused to take responsibility, don't you? And? God still commands submission. I think it's an odd idea myself, but it doesn't negate the command or the obligation to obey it. The Kingdom of God is hierarchical, not egalitarian.

    Submission to husbands as main tool in the wifely marital toolbox would only perpetuate cycles of procrastination, impulsivity, bad decision-making, and even abuse in the worst case. Well, then removing women's obligation to respect their husbands should have made us much more prompt, thoughtful, wise and gentle men - but that doesn't appear to be the case. In fact, statistically, it appears the opposite has happened - we've become even bigger procrastinators, more impulsive, lacking judgment and abusive. So much so in fact that we hearken back to the days before feminism and marvel at men's industriousness, their wisdom, the safety in which we dwelt - but somehow it was all a coincidence as opposed to the natural outflow of a society highly conscious of Judeo-Christian tradition and morality.

    There's the kind of respect we should pay to everyone, a basic acknowledgement of the intrinsic value every human has. This encompasses treating people decently, politely and fairly, regardless of race, sex, mental capacity, religion and so on.

    And then there's the kind of respect that has to be earned. No one's entitled to this one, but everyone can work hard to receive it. A public ceremony attended by friends and family to announce a lifelong sexual commitment to one person seems (to me anyway) a gesture indicating that one has imparted such respect.

    Leadership and authority are closely tied to this kind of respect. If you have to order or force people to follow you, you are not a true leader, but a bully. You walk the aisle of your own free will.




  • WildManWildMan WAMember Posts: 114
    liquid said:
    WildMan said:
     I said that if women should not be obligated to obey the command to respect their husbands, then men should not be required to obey the command to love their wives. I think we probably agree on that.
    I do not see this at all. Especially since the OP has stated that his wife is not a Christian. How can he hold her to a Biblical standard of behavior? Can he, or you or anyone, really say "God, because my wife is, or is behaving as, an unbeliever and treats me badly, I don't have to obey you. Change her and then I will do as I ought."?

    That has nothing to do with my statement, which was countering the accusation that I support allowing men to rape their wives. It is true you cannot hold a non-believer to biblical standards ... these days it is also true that you cannot hold a believer to one either, especially if that believer is a woman. That is my issue.

    Holding a woman to a biblical standard of behavior is quite different than telling God to take a hike because she doesn't obey ... don't quite understand your connection there, but no need to explain further.

  • liquidliquid Brooklyn, NYSilver Member Posts: 1,785
    @WildMan - my point was that this is personal, not societal. You and your wife are sinners in a relationship. God has given instructions to all Christians - repent, give thanks, be patient, etc. And some specific commands for husbands ad wives, which boil down to love and respect.

    You can be "right" about the big picture, but how is that helping you do right in your marriage?
    Katt[Deleted User]
  • KattKatt USASilver Member Posts: 4,554
    Also, @wildman,

    You previously mentioned that the likely reason the commandment is given to wives to respect / submit to their husbands is that women are prone to fail to submit to leadership, and so need the mandate from God.   Using that logic, can we say that the reason men are told to love and sacrifice for their wives is that men are prone to be unloving and selfish?     That is not to say I believe that myself, just continuing the logic of your argument.
  • WildManWildMan WAMember Posts: 114
     
    I've found that when I stopped being so much of a nasty prick my wife wife stopped being so much of a bitch. Not that she's perfect but I definitely instigated some of her behavior by my own.Yes, true, but I was not a nasty prick from the get-go. In fact, I was completely the opposite - endlessly nice, considerate and kind. I studied all the Christian books on marriage I could find beforehand, and "humbled myself" over and over without complaint when it had no effect. It is only now, a decade into the marriage, that I've dropped the sweet guy act and started speaking my mind. 

    I think you're still at the stage where you blame everything on your her and don't acknowledge your own problems. I suggest that if look back on your marriage your wife didn't seem quite so fallen and sinful when she was actually on her knees with your cock in her mouth. Care to tell me when that was? She's probably put it in her mouth maybe 5 times in 10 years, and with her displeasure painfully evident. 

    My advice to you is that even if your wife has transformed into a horrible, corrupt person without any redeeming features, you get over your anger and stop making yourself miserable because she won't change. In my particular case, even though my wife can still be a bitch, I realized that when I stopped hating myself, I stopped hating her as well. She has not turned horrible and corrupt. You think I am badmouthing her; I am rejecting the premise that she is innocent and good and simply behaving as an amoral agent who shouldn't have to answer for her own bad choices because her husband isn't the biggest stud on earth. She declared publicly that I was fit to mate with by walking down the aisle, taking my name and pledging before our entire, extended sphere of family and friends to love, honor and obey, for better or for worse.

  • WildManWildMan WAMember Posts: 114
    liquid said:
    @WildMan - my point was that this is personal, not societal. You and your wife are sinners in a relationship. God has given instructions to all Christians - repent, give thanks, be patient, etc. And some specific commands for husbands ad wives, which boil down to love and respect.

    You can be "right" about the big picture, but how is that helping you do right in your marriage?

    I understand. I just don't view societal and personal as exclusive from one another; if women - Christian women at least - were taught by their elder sisters, as is commanded in Titus 2:3-5, to put away their hypergamous ways and focus on respecting and honoring their husbands ... well, I think we might see less of the problems that have led to the need for men like Athol to create a MAP. Not 100% by any means - but statistically at least, I believe we'd see a reduction, especially if they are marrying good Christian men.

    As to your question about how it helps me to do right in my marriage, I have been "right" about God's commands to husbands from day one - "love your wife." I have pursued, dated, romanced, proposed, remained faithful, ditched porn and stopped dating altogether (long before I met her), brought flowers, brought gifts, showed kindness, self-sacrifice, helped around the house, cleaned, protected, called, stuck around, fathered, defended, given up dreams, been responsible ... I was a master of beta (yes I hear the double entendre too). I'm not trying to justify myself; all I want is what I'm supposed to receive in return. What the Bible, the church and the world all tell me I'm supposed to get if I give it.

  • WildManWildMan WAMember Posts: 114
    Katt said:
    Also, @wildman,

    You previously mentioned that the likely reason the commandment is given to wives to respect / submit to their husbands is that women are prone to fail to submit to leadership, and so need the mandate from God.   Using that logic, can we say that the reason men are told to love and sacrifice for their wives is that men are prone to be unloving and selfish?     That is not to say I believe that myself, just continuing the logic of your argument.

    Precisely, I couldn't agree more. I had a heartbreaking phone call this evening with a client married to a special ops soldier who had just returned from a deployment to initiate a divorce as he'd got involved with another woman overseas. They had JUST had their second child, a two-week old baby boy. It filled me with despair to hear this ... I wanted to race home fast as I could to hold my wife and kids. I hate having to resort to the MAP, because I would never walk out on my kids for another woman besides my wife.

    Do you observe the difference? I never questioned why God commands men to be loving, because I already knew enough to know that we aren't. It's been inculcated in my upbringing from day one that men are insensitive jerks who don't understand or pay attention to their wives. That's just the natural outpour of selfishness. And so is disrespectful rebellion.

    So I resolved before I ever met my wife that if God ever gave me the chance, I would do the opposite. I would love, and sacrifice, and cherish, and protect, just as he commanded. And because I accepted it so blindly, I made the mistake of assuming that he would match me with someone who would just as humbly trust in God to lead her through her husband.

  • WildManWildMan WAMember Posts: 114
     
      My advice was based on the assumption that you want to move past bitterness and frustration. Why is your wife like this? I can not tell you, but the Bible tells us to concern ourselves with our own sins and failings, not those of others.

    Yes, but it also says that there is a way that seems right to a man, but the way thereof is death. You cannot correct a problem someone else deems not to exist; it's a bit like the AA maxim that admitting you have a problem is the hardest part. If you have ever read www.peacefulwife.com, you'll find an excellent example of a Christian woman who would have sworn six days a week and twice on Sunday that she was the most loving, respectful and kind wife she could be to her husband - and then she woke up when she finally listened to God.

    And elsewhere it says that if your brother sins, you are to warn him; if he ignores your warning, you go get two others and warn him together; if he still doesn't listen, put him out of the fellowship. As is so often the case with God, it isn't focus on your own sin only or focus only on others' sins, but both, depending on the scenario. In this case, I have loved but have not been respected in return; but my wife certainly does not think she has disrespected me, because the church and the world are all busy telling her all of the exceptions and justifications she has for not respecting me.


  • liquidliquid Brooklyn, NYSilver Member Posts: 1,785
    OK. I am not disagreeing with you - it is a horrible situation.

    But the Map is about doing. Analyzing where you have gone wrong and taking responsibility. Changing things that are in your power to change. You can't change society but you can change yourself.

    Also. Everything you have said about how you showed love and only want in return what you were supposed to get - huge huge huge covert contract. Nowhere in the Bible do we read that if I do this, then our spouse will do that. It speaks of the blessings of obedience, not a tit for tat arrangement. I put out...and my husband does not buy me flowers. His idea of a Christmas gift is to tell our daughter to pick up a gift card for me and, when she forgets, to tell me on Christmas Eve "Sorry, but I was busy and she forgot" and then give me the card 3 weeks later (when he got around to picking it up) in a matter-of-fact way.

    Loving me like Christ is not a matter of sweet-talking me or buying me flowers. It is about sacrifice and service. None of this is about regular date nights. However, husbands are also told to dwell with their wives in understanding, treat them with respect, don't be harsh.  Even though I think my husband is often unkind and thoughtless, I admire and respect him for his sacrifice and service - and strength. No amount of me being being sweet or losing more weight or lots of BJs is guaranteed to change him, but am I doing it to get something from him or doing it because I know it is right - Col 3:18?

    And yes - Matthew tells us how to deal with a brother in sin. Have you spoken to your pastor or sought counseling? If you attend a church that tells you to do everything and then excuses her, why are you in that church? Our current church, and the two before it, would not have excused me for cutting him off, but would have called us both out.

    Look. Would you be content with duty sex for the rest of your life? Your wife can be counseled to have regular sex, but she can't be made to enjoy it. That comes out of a strong relationship with a man she admires and finds attractive. Figure out what she does not admire or find attractive in you. Think about love languages - you give gifts and serve, but maybe she is needing some totally different things. If you just think that you are awesome and why doesn't she see it, I don't think that this site is going to help you.
    Katt[Deleted User]Mark72
  • liquidliquid Brooklyn, NYSilver Member Posts: 1,785
    Oh wow. So I just skimmed through your intro/Map post. You are obviously working on your stuff and she has not totally cut you off, which is the impression I had.

    But really - I still encourage you to focus on yourself, not on her.
    NomadLiquidSound
  • WildManWildMan WAMember Posts: 114
     
    It's all BS. Society lies to people. You're supposed to do this, people are supposed to do that. Your whole life you've been told "do this, get that," but real life doesn't work that way. The Bible tells people to behave in a certain way, but it can't make them behave that way. God gave people free will and an instruction book. Most people don't read the instructions or don't follow them if they do.

    I was so angry and disgusted when I first realized that everything I've been told was a lie, it just takes a while to get over the anger and realize what the rules actually are. Part of my anger was my own stupidity; I saw how things really worked but because I was told they weren't true I didn't understand or believe my own eyes.


    Indeed. And if you come from my background as a God-hating atheist and want to obey God wholeheartedly because of how horrified you are at your previous life, it is exceedingly painful to look around and see everyone else freely disregarding the parts they don't like or don't find convenient.
    JemStone
  • liquidliquid Brooklyn, NYSilver Member Posts: 1,785
    edited February 2014
    Then don't look around so much!! How is it helping you, or encouraging you, or stengthning you?

    Romans 14:10-13


    NomadMariaJellyBean
  • WildManWildMan WAMember Posts: 114
    liquid said:
    OK. I am not disagreeing with you - it is a horrible situation. I thank you, and I acknowledge your comment that you actually looked at my intro and MAP. 

    Also. Everything you have said about how you showed love and only want in return what you were supposed to get - huge huge huge covert contract. Nowhere in the Bible do we read that if I do this, then our spouse will do that. It speaks of the blessings of obedience, not a tit for tat arrangement. I put out...and my husband does not buy me flowers. His idea of a Christmas gift is to tell our daughter to pick up a gift card for me and, when she forgets, to tell me on Christmas Eve "Sorry, but I was busy and she forgot" and then give me the card 3 weeks later (when he got around to picking it up) in a matter-of-fact way. For many years I believed this. The problem I discovered is that my wife doesn't; in fact, she views our sexual intimacy very much as a tit-for-tat (yes, I do read the sexual innuendo there) arrangement. I give her a back rub, she gives me intercourse. I do something nice, I get my scraps. If I were your husband I would be sending you flowers every day, based on what you describe. That's what I mean when I say that genuine, heartfelt obedience to the Word will (or should) produce exactly the fruit we desire; if my wife had given me the blow job I asked for last night instead of selfishly ignoring me, she wouldn't have had to wash her own dishes to pack her lunch this morning. And on top she would have received exactly what she wants from me in her love language.

    Loving me like Christ is not a matter of sweet-talking me or buying me flowers. It is about sacrifice and service. None of this is about regular date nights. However, husbands are also told to dwell with their wives in understanding, treat them with respect, don't be harsh.  Even though I think my husband is often unkind and thoughtless, I admire and respect him for his sacrifice and service - and strength. No amount of me being being sweet or losing more weight or lots of BJs is guaranteed to change him, but am I doing it to get something from him or doing it because I know it is right - Col 3:18? No kidding - but please, no more promises (not from you - from the church). In other words, don't say "You will be blessed if you obey," because it isn't necessarily true. Something more like "You must obey, whether there is a reward or not" would be better. 

    And yes - Matthew tells us how to deal with a brother in sin. Have you spoken to your pastor or sought counseling? If you attend a church that tells you to do everything and then excuses her, why are you in that church? Our current church, and the two before it, would not have excused me for cutting him off, but would have called us both out. My pastor told me I need to bring her in. She refused. My veterans counselor told me I need to bring her in. She refused. I tried leaving the church to go to a different one; she came for two services and then dug in her heels and we stopped going altogether for a while, until she agreed (in word only, not in deed) to start showing more respect and being more submissive - at which point I agreed to go back to our same church. Rinse-lather-repeat.

    Look. Would you be content with duty sex for the rest of your life? Your wife can be counseled to have regular sex, but she can't be made to enjoy it. That comes out of a strong relationship with a man she admires and finds attractive. Figure out what she does not admire or find attractive in you. Think about love languages - you give gifts and serve, but maybe she is needing some totally different things. If you just think that you are awesome and why doesn't she see it, I don't think that this site is going to help you. I have known and played to her love languages for the eight years since I first read the book. She wants physical touch - specifically back rubs. She wants quality time - but silent quality time where I sit in the same room as her while she watches television. She wants acts of service - help around the house, running errands, handling the children - and I have faithfully done all of these consistently without grumbling or complaining.
    And me? You know what I want.

  • NomadNomad Midwest, USASilver Member Posts: 313

    I have to agree with the consensus here -- it really does seem as though your focus isn't on yourself, as much as it seems to be on your circumstances, or on what others are doing (or not doing).   

    But I'm glad you shared www.peacefulwife.com as a link -- if you're of the Christian persuasion, especially if you're a woman, you'd be hard-pressed to find a more useful resource, IMHO!

    "I'm done getting angry about things, so I can either laugh, or I can cry.  I choose to laugh." -- Mandrill

    "Play to your own strengths, not to some pre-determined script of what a 'dominant male' looks like, and the rest will follow." -- Serenity

    "Master your own sexuality and you master hers." -- KatherineKelly
  • liquidliquid Brooklyn, NYSilver Member Posts: 1,785
    I know that part of my husband's appeal is that he is the opposite of a beta orbiter. I would like it if he were more considerate, but I much prefer his style to the one that you describe. Athol's books are just full of ways to behave and think to start turning things around.
  • liquidliquid Brooklyn, NYSilver Member Posts: 1,785
    Mrs. Peaceful Wife sounds exactly like my 2 favorite pastor's wives! I am glad someone mentioned it!
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