Biblical thoughts on divorve and sexless marriages

AlphaVsBeta

@wildman, Many forum men had the same anger and bitterness when they discovered that all of their Beta efforts actually did more harm than good to their marriages. But this is something you MUST try to get past. Being stuck in that place only leads to bitterness. And what if you stay in that mindset? lets say it leads to you divorcing your current wife? what happens next? most likely the same thing, because the pattern is the same, just with a different woman! it may take time to play out, but that is the truth of it. Is it unfair? It sure is! Is it gong to be hard work to run your MAP and change? Absolutely! but the pay-off will be YOU becoming the most awesome YOU possible. You must accept the thruth of the red pill, and put away the anger of your new understanding.

Roses

@WildMan
You need to follow the MAP.  You really, really do.  Your wife has a perfectly acceptable status quo to her.  If there are no Titus 2 women around her, then you cannot rely on them to correct her--and honestly, they probably wouldn't know there was a problem anyway (are you really going to go to an older lady and tell her your marital problems?  Your wife doesn't have a problem with the status quo, remember, so she doesn't perceive any problems here).
Telling her isn't going to do anything good, coming from you.  You have to show, not tell.  Remember, from her perspective, your marriage is just fine.  She's got the funds she needs from Mom and Dad, she's got more sex than she wants, she's got help with the kids and house, her life's good.  You're the one who sees a problem.
The burden is, however unfairly, on those of us who see a problem with the status quo.  Like I tell my kids "Life's not fair, get over it."  Until our spouses have a problem with the status quo, nothing's going to change.  So we have to MAP.

WildMan

Nomad said:

I have to agree with the consensus here -- it really does seem as though your focus isn't on yourself, as much as it seems to be on your circumstances, or on what others are doing (or not doing).   

But I'm glad you shared www.peacefulwife.com as a link -- if you're of the Christian persuasion, especially if you're a woman, you'd be hard-pressed to find a more useful resource, IMHO

It varies. But suffice it to say that I am doing what the MAP suggests. I get wrapped around the injustice sometimes. There are few things that enrage me more than going to the trouble of doing the right thing while other people get a pass. And there's nothing more humiliating than having invested myself deeply in something I believed to be gospel truth, only to find out it was a sugar-coated lie.

But you know what? It is beginning to subside, because I have programmed my subconscious now to address things I can change. I'll post a MAP update in a bit to talk about the progress I've made.

Nomad

WildMan said:

Nomad said:

I have to agree with the consensus here -- it really does seem as though your focus isn't on yourself, as much as it seems to be on your circumstances, or on what others are doing (or not doing).   

But I'm glad you shared www.peacefulwife.com as a link -- if you're of the Christian persuasion, especially if you're a woman, you'd be hard-pressed to find a more useful resource, IMHO

It varies. But suffice it to say that I am doing what the MAP suggests. I get wrapped around the injustice sometimes. There are few things that enrage me more than going to the trouble of doing the right thing while other people get a pass. And there's nothing more humiliating than having invested myself deeply in something I believed to be gospel truth, only to find out it was a sugar-coated lie.

But you know what? It is beginning to subside, because I have programmed my subconscious now to address things I can change. I'll post a MAP update in a bit to talk about the progress I've made.

Well said.  I can certainly understand your frustration.  I look at the wives here, and at places like Peacefulwife and it makes me immensely sad (it used to make me angry).  I keep wondering what I'M doing wrong and why I'M not good enough to have a wonderful marriage like that.  But ultimately, I can only change myself.  I look forward to your MAP update!

liquid

@Nomad ; Many of the wives here don't have wonderful marriages. And the Peaceful-Wife type wife does not necessarily have a wonderful marriage either.

I was trained to be the Peaceful Wife-type wife. Why am I here? Because I am unhappy. My husband is very happy! So I am looking for a new approach - not one that would be disrespectful or selfish or unloving, but one that gave me some fresh ideas. The Map showed me that I had a covert contract - I would respect him and be available in bed and be as good a wife as I could be and he would love me and show me that love by doing nice things for me in the way I wanted and I would feel happy. Yeah - not how life works.

I look at many of the men here, who do shower their wives with the things I want, and it is not making their wives happy. So, even if my husband were to change and be more like some of the guys here, it still would not make me happy. Because - he is not responsible for my happiness! He is my husband, not God. I need to work out my own issues, not expect him to change to please me. Again, that's why I find the Map helpful.

nascent

As a fellow Christian, my 2 cents:

If your wife isn't obligated to do that which she doesn't feel like doing in her marriage, then neither are you.  So as a countermeasure against the sort of nonsense that you face,  I would stop doing those things that you do for her benefit.  Start small and go from there…for example if it were me, where I lived it recently snowed.  I hate shoveling snow and it always melts in a couple of days anyway.  So I wouldn't shovel it, if my wife wants it done she can do it herself.  From there I would progress to not making the bed, not paying her credit card bill, canceling her cel phone if I paid for it, not helping with the dishes, etc etc

liquid

@nascent - how is that a scriptural approach? Because I can think of some verses that would encourage the opposite of what you are suggesting. Romans 12:17-21. 1 Peter 3:9-17. Matthew 5:43-48

And is that a practical approach? The Map says don't be her Beta orbiter and don't be her servant. It doesn't say to neglect your responsibilities, as you will come off passive-aggressive and pissy. Cancelling her cell phone, for example, could be a matter of cutting off your nose to spite your face, if you have children and she uses her phone to keep in touch/manage your family life.

Nomad

nascent said:

As a fellow Christian, my 2 cents:

If your wife isn't obligated to do that which she doesn't feel like doing in her marriage, then neither are you.  So as a countermeasure against the sort of nonsense that you face,  I would stop doing those things that you do for her benefit.  Start small and go from there…for example if it were me, where I lived it recently snowed.  I hate shoveling snow and it always melts in a couple of days anyway.  So I wouldn't shovel it, if my wife wants it done she can do it herself.  From there I would progress to not making the bed, not paying her credit card bill, canceling her cel phone if I paid for it, not helping with the dishes, etc etc

I honestly don't see this as being helpful (or "Christian") at all.  This seems more vindictive and counterproductive than anything else.  If my marriage is to be damned, I want to know that come what may, I took the high road and did what was right (to the best of my ability) whenever I could.

nascent

liquid said:

@nascent - how is that a scriptural approach? Because I can think of some verses that would encourage the opposite of what you are suggesting. Romans 12:17-21. 1 Peter 3:9-17. Matthew 5:43-48

And is that a practical approach? The Map says don't be her Beta orbiter and don't be her servant. It doesn't say to neglect your responsibilities, as you will come off passive-aggressive and pissy. Cancelling her cell phone, for example, could be a matter of cutting off your nose to spite your face, if you have children and she uses her phone to keep in touch/manage your family life.

I don't think it has to come across as passive aggressive or pissy at all.  I think it can come off as the opposite. Obligations go both ways or they don't go either way.  That is the line I would take.  Either we are both obligated towards one another, or we are not.  If we are both obligated only to the degree that is comfortable for us individually, that reality needs to be embraced by both parties or the relationship becomes frustratingly uneven and untenable.  This isn't about cel phones or money, per se…the term 'responsibilities' is a subjective and loaded term in this context, imo.  

Let me give a practical example:  I am someone that doesn't care about expensive furniture.  Being single, I would never spend a lot of money on furniture.  Most women like nice furniture in my experience, however. If I was married and my wife wanted me to contribute x number of dollars to new furniture, is it my 'responsibility' to do so? I would argue absolutely not.  Is it passive aggressive to refuse to contribute that money towards furniture?  Again, I would argue absolutely not. 

There are a million examples of this.  I don't like making the bed.  The world isn't going to end if I don't make the bed.  I wouldn't say that it is my responsibility to make the bed, I would say that my philosophy of life is different than most women's.  That doesn't mean I'm shirking my responsibilities if I refuse to make the bed.  It just means that I'm putting what's important to me (not making the bed) ahead of what's important to my wife (having a made bed).  Another practical example you see all the time is that when stuff breaks in the house, the wife wants those things fixed and the husband often doesn't care whether they get fixed or not.  It's important to the wife, but not important to the husband.

You see, once we get into the area in marriage of only being obligated to do what is comfortable for important to us individually, it becomes a very slippery slope in practice.  I truly believe that often a taste of one's own philosophy and medicine is just what is needed to right the ship.

liquid

Well. Things like making the bed are not responsibilities. You are right.  Thnigs like chores and repairs can be negotiated in a marriage. Some couples keep traditional gender roles, others work it out by considering time/ability/enjoyment. But sex is different. The OP and the other men who have posted here are not, I believe, just looking for their wives to have sex more often. They are looking for their wives to WANT to have sex. Negotiated or duty sex is not enough. I can do the laundry out of duty, but I can't give myself to him in the same way. In a marriage where she has little to no attraction, Sex is important to the husband but not the wife.

Several of the men here speak of having done everything "right". Well - it's just not true.  A husband who overdoes the beta support in the hopes of getting great sex is not right and did not do everything right. He may be bitter...but how can he say that he held up his end and she did not? If he did not provide her with leadership, if he was not strong, then he did not hold up his end of the marriage either.

That would be like a wife saying "I did everything right! I cooked and cleaned and was a great Mom and was frugal and good to his Mom. Why was he not content with me and watches a lot of porn and had 2 EAs over the years? He is a bad husband!" But her thinking she was a good wife did not make her one. Like Athol said in one of his posts, she would be a AAAAF wife.

It is a bad place for both of them...but they need to admit where they have gone wrong and make changes, not dig in their heels and say "I did everything right - love me the way I am". But, I honestly believe that the husband changing is what makes the difference. It is part of being the leader. He can start leading, showing strength and improving himself in all the ways Athol writes about. He can develop these qualities without any input from his wife. It is..almost impossible for a wife to create desire out of nothing. Double standard and unfair? Well, I beleive it is true and supported by scripture. The man needs to lead and she needs to follow. I

And - you said you are a Christian but you have not offered any Biblical support for your view.

nascent

liquid said:

Well. Things like making the bed are not responsibilities. You are right.  Thnigs like chores and repairs can be negotiated in a marriage. Some couples keep traditional gender roles, others work it out by considering time/ability/enjoyment. But sex is different. The OP and the other men who have posted here are not, I believe, just looking for their wives to have sex more often. They are looking for their wives to WANT to have sex. Negotiated or duty sex is not enough. I can do the laundry out of duty, but I can't give myself to him in the same way. In a marriage where she has little to no attraction, Sex is important to the husband but not the wife.

Several of the men here speak of having done everything "right". Well - it's just not true.  A husband who overdoes the beta support in the hopes of getting great sex is not right and did not do everything right. He may be bitter...but how can he say that he held up his end and she did not? If he did not provide her with leadership, if he was not strong, then he did not hold up his end of the marriage either.

That would be like a wife saying "I did everything right! I cooked and cleaned and was a great Mom and was frugal and good to his Mom. Why was he not content with me and watches a lot of porn and had 2 EAs over the years? He is a bad husband!" But her thinking she was a good wife did not make her one. Like Athol said in one of his posts, she would be a AAAAF wife.

It is a bad place for both of them...but they need to admit where they have gone wrong and make changes, not dig in their heels and say "I did everything right - love me the way I am". But, I honestly believe that the husband changing is what makes the difference. It is part of being the leader. He can start leading, showing strength and improving himself in all the ways Athol writes about. He can develop these qualities without any input from his wife. It is..almost impossible for a wife to create desire out of nothing. Double standard and unfair? Well, I beleive it is true and supported by scripture. The man needs to lead and she needs to follow. I

And - you said you are a Christian but you have not offered any Biblical support for your view.

I have to get back to you on this as I have to be somewhere.  But I will.  Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.  God bless.

liquid

@nascent - I read your introduction thread and your other thread, and I am not going to discuss this any further with you. If you are serious about cleaning up your structural issues, you should be discussing them.

Cowboy

@Nascent, I know what you're trying to get at:  if my wife doesn't uphold a basic part of our marriage, why should I do things for her?  The problem is that the items you've mentioned aren't really "nice" things, they're more like "maintenance" or "avoiding trouble" kind of things.

A couple of years ago, I, too, tried to think of something to take away in order to get my wife's attention.  Unfortunately, everything I could take away that she would notice would have hurt me, too.  Not paying the mortgage, no longer paying the electricity bill, letting the yard go to hell were things that would've hurt me worse than her.  Besides, I was afraid she would never get the point I was trying to make.  Had I done those things, things would've gotten worse.

Many men here -- myself included -- have gotten into the trap of being the wife's errand boy or little kitchen bitch (pardon the expression), and they've got the worst of both worlds:  doing extra crap and still not getting any. There is a fundamental difference between doing basic household stuff and not being her servant.

I think you will find that trying to up the positive and dial down the negative in you -- instead of blasting a negative onto both of you -- will work far better than trying to make her feel the same way you do.  It sucks, but that's the way it goes.

horseman

The Toaist view of marriage remembering that moderation in all things and humility are two of the key pillars. Quote from Daily Meditations

Ultimately all relationships are temporary. False attachment to another can become an addiction, a voluntary bondage detrimental to clear perception. We should not bind another to us, force another to sta with us. But if chance allows us to walk together, who is anyone to challenge our choice of walking companions.

When it is time to part, it is time to part. There should be no regrets. The beauty of marriage is like the fleeting perfection of a snowflake.

horseman

Then again like all things the Tao is contradictory

Meditation 30
Nocturnal downpour, wakes the lovers, floods the valley
Making love is natural, why be ashamed of it

Meditation 60
In winter animals do not mate
Preserve your Tao
By preserving your essence
The follower of Tao makes love according to the seasons

In winter should be less or not at all, in spring it may be at its most frequent
The young should restrict to about once every three days, the middle aged should reduce to once a week, the elderly to less than that.

JellyBean

@horseman said:

The Toaist view of marriage remembering that moderation in all things and humility are two of the key pillars. Quote from Daily Meditations Ultimately all relationships are temporary. False attachment to another can become an addiction, a voluntary bondage detrimental to clear perception. We should not bind another to us, force another to sta with us. But if chance allows us to walk together, who is anyone to challenge our choice of walking companions. When it is time to part, it is time to part. There should be no regrets. The beauty of marriage is like the fleeting perfection of a snowflake.

These are beautiful and challenging thoughts.  I first heard this concept of temporary relationships when I was grieving my stillborn baby. 

There is a lot of wisdom and painful peace in Taoism.

horseman

The Tao is about the paths. Not one path but many that one can follow. It is about following the natural flow while being responsible for our actions. All decisions daily change the path. Some to joy some to sorrow but all things are part of theTao. It is about accepting, internalizing and moving ever on.

It is more philosphy than religion. All 36,000 gods (small g) are all roles within the Tao.

Also the basic tenant hard to translate from Mandarin to English. Tao is at once a verb, noun and adjective.

2manypasswords

I agree with you.  Refusing to do house cleaning or repairs is PA and kicks responsibilities down the road.  With that said, I'm sure as hell not going to give her a foot rub while she watches Grey's Anatomy, when we have sex of the duty/starfish variety less than once a month.

liquid said:

@nascent - how is that a scriptural approach? Because I can think of some verses that would encourage the opposite of what you are suggesting. Romans 12:17-21. 1 Peter 3:9-17. Matthew 5:43-48

And is that a practical approach? The Map says don't be her Beta orbiter and don't be her servant. It doesn't say to neglect your responsibilities, as you will come off passive-aggressive and pissy. Cancelling her cell phone, for example, could be a matter of cutting off your nose to spite your face, if you have children and she uses her phone to keep in touch/manage your family life.