On Initiation

MiddleMan

I'm still very early in my MAP. One piece of advice I'm seeing here in the forums is to initiate every day. Either get to a hard no and display good OI, or get down to business in bed.

This is difficult for me. Every day? That's eventually going to piss my wife off. And to be perfectly honest, I'm not always excited enough about the kind/quality of sex we'll be having. Right now, I see the benefit (some marginal to pretty-good, occasionally quite good sex) as being either not big enough or likely enough to justify the cost (going outside my comfort zone to initiate to a hard no, risking a pissed-off wife).

Even as I type this, I know that the answer is "Just do it anyway." I want to lead our marriage to a point where we're having frequent, intense, fun sex. Sex that we both enjoy and look forward to and connect through. Sex where she'll even give me BJTC or HJ when she's menstruating. Part of my hesitation is that I don't see my wife as being the "type of girl" who would go for that. And that goal seems a long way away.

Can some of you more experienced MAPpers help me out with my mindset here? What's the way I need to think about this so that I don't talk myself out of daily initiations? Maybe some FOs can give me their perspectives; I don't know how my relatively blue-pill wife is perceiving me and what I'm doing right now.

Thanks in advance.

SignorePillolaRossa

i think you need to get a little bit out of your head - this is something i have only recently just started to turn the corner on ... realizing that i don't really want it ALL the time ... i still want it 4 or 5 times a week and i get it less than 2, but it feels good to not even have to 'deal' with whether / how to initiate EVERY day/night

you should initiate when you want to ... it doesn't have to be every day .. but it should be every time you want to .. if you don't really know when you truly, organically want to, maybe take up meditation or journaling or just take it as a 'not' until your body is bursting and you are damn sure its a 'yes'

and you should cultivate excellent OI .. let her own being 'pissed off' if she chooses to say 'no' ... you have to learn to non sarcastically, non passive aggressively, non negatively dismiss her bitching after she says 'no' ... 

you: <awesome cocky smile / bemused chuckle tone of voice> "I am not going to apologize for wanting to enjoy hot sex with my hot wife. It's fine if you say 'no', although i can't imagine why you'd turn down a ride to awesomeville with your awesome husband. Keep being attractive and i'm sure you'll get another invitation for me soon enough. I'm gonna go do <awesome thing>. see ya later, sweetcheeks <ass slap / cocky wink>"

as for what type of girl she is, you'll just have to see as your MAP results unfold and you build attraction in the gym and in your interactions ... find the ways to encourage her as you express what you want but be OI if she isnt ready for that ... don't censor yourself, just make it safe when she says no and let her know that you are leaving hope for the future when you are awesome enough to attract her to want to

are you happy awesome fun sexy flirting with her?

Seneca

Not an overly experienced mapper by any stretch, but I would suggest prioritizing your efforts to become more awesome ahead of your efforts to initiate every day.  If you're clearly in a place where your wife is going to turn you down 100% of the time, day after day, then I think it's fine NOT to initiate every day.  Be sure, though, that you're actively working to improve yourself.  When you get active in self-improvement, you get a shot of confidence.  As you up your alpha, you'll also probably find yourself with more sexual energy toward your wife (which converts to confidence and makes initiating feel less stupid).

Also - if you use porn or masturbate, stop that now.  In a couple of weeks' time you will likely feel a lot more like initiating, because your body will be forcing you to.

Those are my 2 cents.  I know it probably only touches on a portion of what you're looking for, but it's all I feel qualified to speak to right now.

MiddleMan

@Seneca- To be clear, we're definitely not in a place where I'll get turned down 100% of the time. Simply because of my MAPping so far, just by initiating more often, we're having sex more often. This January, we're having PiV sex 2-3 times per week, which is pretty darn good, frequency-wise. I want to improve the quality more than the quantity. (And if the quality improves, I'm sure I'll want more quantity....)

I think I'm having an issue with the "Initiate every day" advice I've seen in the forums. That seems to be too much, too soon. I do like the idea of initiating when I really want it. I know my body well enough to know that. That makes a lot more sense to me.

fredless

You initiate when you want sex.

FlyingDutchman

fredless said:

You initiate when you want sex.

Which if you're a normal healthy male is pretty much every day.

fredless

pjm said:

I'm still working on initiating more often. I know that my wife would like me to, but honestly... Ever since my sex drive came back and our sex life got really good again... She has made it more difficult for me to initiate. She pre-emptively claims to be too tired some nights, so I don't initiate... And then she does! I'm trying to make some progress here and remind her that I want her that badly but it's hard to get there when I'm also trying to be Mr. Understanding...

Get out of your head.  Her telling you she is tired is not a hard no.  Mr. Understanding doesn't get sex...with anyone. 

AlphaVsBeta

There seems to be two schools of thought regarding the whole concept of initiating.

As stated above, intiate when YOU feel like it. This is ALPHA, this is you taking ownership of the sexual portion of your relationship with your wife. Some guys would like sex every day...some 2-3 times a week. Everyones different. Pushing for more sex also gives you the opportunity to push her to a hard "NO", which in turn lets you practice your OI A&A and skills.

Yet, There are many many posts where guys have pushed the envelope too early, too fast and lost sight of the concept of "the bedroom comes last" (look it up, its an amazing post). Where they have indeed not taken all of the combined wisdom of MMSP (stoking responsive desire, figured out the optimal good alpha, good beta mix for THEIR wife, making measurable headway on REDS and YELLOWS, building observable muscularity) and it has backfired miserably on them. They are going for the "quick fix" and want the bedroom first.

Then there are the guys whose wives are just not really attracted, and may never be...or who have massive historical structural issues to overcome...or whose wives have "golden vagina syndrome"

So for you, it may very well set you back if you try to intiate every night, when her attraction to you is not really cranked up. The quality thing is going to really depend on you figuring out what really gets her going attraction-wise. Again, search the term "inner slut" or "good girl". Both will send you to discussions regarding how to overcome your wifes inner good girl, and bring out her inner slut.

but for the most part, bad girl porn star sex = wildly attracted + ovulation timing + hotel room...or, she is wildly attracted to you and trusts you enough to let herself go.

Know theyself and know thy wife...

Eightbit

FlyingDutchman said:

fredless said:

fredless said:

You initiate when you want sex.

Which if you're a normal healthy male is pretty much every day.

Disagree. I don't want sex everyday, and I'm very healthy and perfectly normal. When I was in my twenties, sure. The last ten years or so it's slowly waned to about every other or every third day, four times a week roughly, is ideal for me. Point being everyone is different. No reason to initiate everyday if you don't want sex everyday.

The_Dude

@pjm: " Granted, she almost always initiates, but once she initiates, it's on."

You have to actively work to switch this to a more balanced situation.  If you are letting her do all the initiation you are sending a big signal.   She may continue to initiate for a while but I would bet it will slow down or stop.  Tell her by your actions that you desire her enough to push yourself past your anxiety.

"She has made it more difficult for me to initiate. She pre-emptively claims to be too tired some nights, so I don't initiate"

Even if this isn't an conscious test, you are failing it.  After a while she's gonna notice.  And her only conclusion can be either you're too weak to overcome your fear or you don't want her very much.  Just approach it like a game a few times.  When you recognize the situation, initiate without any expectation of success.

MiddleMan

@ANewHope- Thanks! I think you have an accurate picture of how I'm doing. We were never sexless, we've just been somewhat boring. I have every reason to believe that my MAPping will help me get things to where I want them to be.

Redford

pjm said:

She pre-emptively claims to be too tired some nights, so I don't initiate... And then she does!

Shit test failed, dude. 

Snoopy

I try to make my wife horny whenever I can. Even on those does where she indicates that is not interested in sex.  Even when I don't really want to have sex.

It is really for my own mindset.   When I am flirting with her, I just have an over all better attitude, It is hard to be grumpy when I am trying to sex her up. Also I tend to get into Alpha/Captain take charge mode as well.  Its funny, for me I have to be "on" all the time. If I take the day off things go sour really fast. 

As usual, the above is mostly effective when she is already attracted.

Britguy68

Eightbit said:

fredless said:

You initiate when you want sex.

Which if you're a normal healthy male is pretty much every day.

Disagree. I don't want sex everyday, and I'm very healthy and perfectly normal. When I was in my twenties, sure. The last ten years or so it's slowly waned to about every other or every third day, four times a week roughly, is ideal for me. Point being everyone is different. No reason to initiate everyday if you don't want sex everyday.

Agree, I'm 45, and around 3 times a week is good for me.

MiddleMan

Eightbit said:

fredless said:

You initiate when you want sex.

Which if you're a normal healthy male is pretty much every day.

Disagree. I don't want sex everyday, and I'm very healthy and perfectly normal. When I was in my twenties, sure. The last ten years or so it's slowly waned to about every other or every third day, four times a week roughly, is ideal for me. Point being everyone is different. No reason to initiate everyday if you don't want sex everyday.

I'm 38 and healthy, and I don't want it every day. I do think some of that has to do with the quality (see my original post). In my mind, right now, my "perfect world" goal would be to have some intense, mutually satisfying and fun sex with my wife 3-4, maybe even 5 times per week. Having it literally every day is not important to me. I just want it to be awesome when we do have it.

SteveDallas

There is a distinction between "initiate daily" vs getting to an "assumed yes" relationship dynamic.

The goal isn't to necessarily initiate daily, but it is a good goal to set a paradigm where it is assumed that you are both up for sex unless you choose not to.

Most guys get here with an "assumed no" in their relationship so they are encouraged to initiate more often so that the wife begins to understand that sex is actually a fairly constant undercurrent in the relationship.

Batattack

Eightbit said:

FlyingDutchman said:

fredless said:

fredless said:

You initiate when you want sex.

Which if you're a normal healthy male is pretty much every day.

Disagree. I don't want sex everyday, and I'm very healthy and perfectly normal. When I was in my twenties, sure. The last ten years or so it's slowly waned to about every other or every third day, four times a week roughly, is ideal for me. Point being everyone is different. No reason to initiate everyday if you don't want sex everyday.

Agree, and it's nice to see I am not the only guy who knows that he doesn't want/need sex everyday. I used to think I did want it that much but anytime I get it 3-4 times a week I am happy.

Now I just wish I wasn't the only guy on here who's dick is under 11".

Saluki

My wife attacked me verbally recently, accusing me of "wanting it every day!"

Of course I replied "That's ridiculous. ... Twice a day would be optimal."

We're both 46.

MiddleMan

Last night, both my wife and I were tired. We went to bed together before 10, which is unusual.

She had been somewhat physically affectionate during the evening- stroking the back of my head (I just got a haircut), cuddling on the couch. We had a proper kiss or two before bed. So, even though I was tired I was feeling it.

I initiated by kissing her and feeling her breasts, even though we were under the heavy covers and she was wearing multiple layers of pajamas. After about a minute, she said "I don't want to have sex tonight." I treated that as a hard no. In hindsight, I probably could have persisted a bit more; I didn't have a witty reply in mind and I let that stop me. I told her "no problem" and rolled over to go to sleep. That was more OI than it would have been to leave the bed to do something else at that point. And I was really tired.

She told me that every time she tells me no, she's afraid it's going to break down into an emotional discussion about sex. I told her, confidently, that "We're not going to do that anymore." Then she said that we need to do intimate things that don't involve sex, like cuddling, kissing, etc. I told her that we're doing that. Again, it would have been really great if I had a super-alpha, cocky reply to that. But I had nothing. I told her "We're doing pretty well." Which probably was a lot worse than just STFU.

Then, reading the "...It's disrespectful" discussion this morning, I'm getting a bit discouraged. I have to keep telling myself that I'm just starting out, and I'm seeing the occasional flicker of progress. But I can't help but think I took at least as many steps backward as I did forward last night.

SignorePillolaRossa

i don't think you did too bad .. in fact, i am not sure did anything bad at all

OI was the thing and you nailed it

you said that there would be no more long talks after rejection - very good

sure, a sexy cocky thing would be fun to A&A with, but it's not required ... 'we're doing pretty well' is good because 'pretty well' is like a C- , passing, but barely ... it leaves the unspoken truth that at some point, you are gonna wanna start improving towards a lot better than 'pretty well' ...

you rolled over and went to bed

i don't think you set yourself back ... solid A- on the night, well done!!

one thing you want to tuck away in the back of your mind is the idea that SHE is selfish .. .she ONLY wants what SHE wants (non sexual intimacy - kissing cuddling - which she was getting and i assume she gets whenever she wants) ... you are MORE than happy to give her that but you also want what YOU want, namely, sex with your wife ... she needs to own that she is taking 100% of what she wants and giving 0% of what you (totally legitimately) want while you are happy to aim for 100% of what she wants and 100% of what you want

only use this kind of notion if you can work it into a totally playful A&A - not as a bitter / sarcastic / snarky retort when you are rejected

MiddleMan

SignorePillolaRossa

Thanks! Feedback like that really helps, especially since I'm so early in the process. I can be very hard on myself if I make a mistake. That's probably something I need to work on.