On Initiation

Mr_Brown

@MiddleMan You need to establish a red, some sort of signal that tonight's just not the night. In your own mind preferably but something she will eventually realize means stop and you won't bother me anymore.

For my wife and I it's an elbow, nothing that'll hurt, just a little more than a nudge. She knows I'll back off and become OI. Once this realization was made she has been less stressed and it has nixed some of her negative feelings towards sex. It's taken some pressure off of her and she's starting to respond more favorably.

A little of my own interpretation of the red yellow green tool.

AlphaVsBeta

How she responded to your initiation would be considered a "soft no"...You really need to push her to a "hard no" so she can own the "No", and not hamster rationalize it was because you were both "tired", etc.

I would suggest you attempt to start removing clothing as she is soft no'ing...actions + words work well in phase one initations. Make her own the "No".

This is all pretty much pare for the course...your doing great!

MiddleMan

@Mr_Brown- Right now, her red seems to be a complete lack of response. I mean, when she's wearing several layers of unsexy pajamas, and she's keeping her arms in a position that makes it impossible for me to take them off without being forceful (and there's perhaps another thread), that seems like a pretty clear red to me. The fact that she outright said "I don't want to have sex" last night means that at least I carried it forward enough that she had to tell me no.

Mr_Brown

@MiddleMan I agree, a red is a red, the difficulty which comes into play is the line between yellow and red.

New scenario: one layer of frumpy armor on, you make your moves and you get a week no or an I've got a head ache... How far would you push it til you backed off? I've pushed through these no's before but if I ever get a little bit of physical resistance like the elbow or a shrug off I'm out. There's also a difference in the way she might pull my hand away that I can't exactly explain, but you can get my point. Until then I push through. It also can be the way she says no.

Mr_Brown

ETA: Make sure your consistent. If your all over the place the trust won't be developed.

hoping4better

MiddleMan said:

@Mr_Brown- Right now, her red seems to be a complete lack of response. I mean, when she's wearing several layers of unsexy pajamas, and she's keeping her arms in a position that makes it impossible for me to take them off without being forceful (and there's perhaps another thread), that seems like a pretty clear red to me. The fact that she outright said "I don't want to have sex" last night means that at least I carried it forward enough that she had to tell me no.

Her - "I don't want to have sex"  

You "Me neither, let's just fuck"  or "I think I can change your mind (continue to molest)"

Don't be hard on yourself you have half a year or more to go.  You are just starting.  But that was not a hard no from her.  Alpha up a little more, be playful and flirty when she acts like that, tease her a bit, stay in physical contact and keep escalating until she physically pushes you away.  Then keep OI and be pleasant.

Going to bed early and at the same time is a good start as well.

Her armor pajamas are just a test.  Don't start feeling defeated by just seeing them. Also TURN UP THE HEAT before you get into bed.  It's hard to game cold.

SteveDallas

@UnBetaMe said:

Then, reading the "...It's disrespectful" discussion this morning, I'm getting a bit discouraged. I have to keep telling myself that I'm just starting out, and I'm seeing the occasional flicker of progress. But I can't help but think I took at least as many steps backward as I did forward last night.

I'm right there with you, Man. There are glimmers of hope and then the door just slams shut sometimes. Try not to spend too much time analyzing it... I have that problem! Stay the course and keep your frame the best you can.  

The veteran Mappers are great motivation, but it is sometimes hard to read about their successes, when anything close to that seems SO far out of reach.

Just don't give up.

When she says no, just emphasize that she is missing out on as much, or more, than you are. When you do get the chance, be an awesome lover. And don't be afraid to remind her of it.

It sounds insane, but somehow they respond to irrational arrogance.
Her: "Not tonight, I've got a headache."
You: "Really? I've got the cure" (as you start undressing)

Her: "I'm not in the mood"
You: "Okay, if you aren't in the mood for mind blowing orgasms, that's fine with me" (as you start undressing)

Her: "All you think about is sex"
You: "Hey, happy wife, happy life. I'm just trying to keep you happy." (as you start undressing)

It won't lead to sex every time, but it will eventually change the way she sees you. Suddenly, you aren't the sad puppy begging his wife to pat him on the head and throw him a bone. You're a sexual tyrannosaurus. 

fredless

MiddleMan said:

Last night, both my wife and I were tired. We went to bed together before 10, which is unusual.

She had been somewhat physically affectionate during the evening- stroking the back of my head (I just got a haircut), cuddling on the couch. We had a proper kiss or two before bed. So, even though I was tired I was feeling it.

I initiated by kissing her and feeling her breasts, even though we were under the heavy covers and she was wearing multiple layers of pajamas. After about a minute, she said "I don't want to have sex tonight." I treated that as a hard no. In hindsight, I probably could have persisted a bit more; I didn't have a witty reply in mind and I let that stop me. I told her "no problem" and rolled over to go to sleep. That was more OI than it would have been to leave the bed to do something else at that point. And I was really tired.

She told me that every time she tells me no, she's afraid it's going to break down into an emotional discussion about sex. I told her, confidently, that "We're not going to do that anymore." Then she said that we need to do intimate things that don't involve sex, like cuddling, kissing, etc. I told her that we're doing that. Again, it would have been really great if I had a super-alpha, cocky reply to that. But I had nothing. I told her "We're doing pretty well." Which probably was a lot worse than just STFU.

Then, reading the "...It's disrespectful" discussion this morning, I'm getting a bit discouraged. I have to keep telling myself that I'm just starting out, and I'm seeing the occasional flicker of progress. But I can't help but think I took at least as many steps backward as I did forward last night.

wife: I don't want to have sex tonight.
MiddleMan:  Me, either.  [continues removing wife's clothes]
wife:  What are you doing?
MiddleMan:  I'm not having sex with you.
wife:  [Hard no]
MiddleMan:  (with a smirky, puzzled look) You're behavior is odd.  No sex for you.
And no matter what she says after that, you continue telling her she is not getting sex.  Even if she gets angry.

or

wife: I don't want to have sex tonight.
MiddleMan:  Me, either.  [continues removing wife's clothes]
wife:  What are you doing?
MiddleMan:  I'm not having sex with you.
wife:  [smile/giggle]
MiddleMan:  [sex with wife]

allenaddingalpha

I am at the point where I almost never get turned down.  What works for us is about every other night - 3 to 4 times a week.  I usually don't initiate the day after.  We like to take our time and have fun together and we don't get started until after the kids are in bed (teenagers so its pretty late).  The next night I encourage her to get in bed early and get some good rest.  Of course if we are both feeling good the next day we will definitely go for it again.

I also find that having a little pent up sexual energy makes the sex better and makes me more aggressive.  Find what works for you and go for that.  I definitely don't think there is a rule that you have to initiate every night. 

RedPillLearning

AlphaVsBeta said:

How she responded to your initiation would be considered a "soft no"...You really need to push her to a "hard no" so she can own the "No", and not hamster rationalize it was because you were both "tired", etc.

I would suggest you attempt to start removing clothing as she is soft no'ing...actions + words work well in phase one initations. Make her own the "No".

This is all pretty much pare for the course...your doing great!

Totally agree with this one.  For me, it works against me to just start touching her breasts even if we had been cuddling and kissing earlier.  It works much better with my wife to just be direct and say what I want (e.g. "I want to be inside of you") or to just start taking off her panties.  Just a few months ago I would have never thought that would work.

MiddleMan

All right. Here's how tonight went.

Relevant context: We had sex last night. Afterward, my wife didn't sleep well because she was caring for my daughter who had come down with a nasty cough.Today is my birthday. My wife put a lot of effort into making a delicious dinner (including steak) and home-baked cake. I complimented the heck out of her for it; it was a great gesture and the kind of gift I wanted.

But after we put our daughter to bed tonight, DW and I are watching TV together while cuddling on the couch. It's clear that my wife is exhausted. She announces that she needs to go to bed early. After she brushes her teeth, I go to the bedroom and start kissing her. I tell her, "I know you're very tired, but I don't want you to think that means I don't want you really bad right now." She responds with, "I hope you don't get pissy." This is  a reference to how I often acted after a "no" before I started MAPping.

But I responded with, "I told you, I don't do that anymore." And after a smile, I say, "Besides, you're the one who's missing out on all this," gesturing to my chest. She acts exasperated. I maintain OI and go to the kitchen. After she gets into her pajamas (heavy frumpy armor), she comes into the kitchen to say good night. I finish what I'm doing and thank her again for the birthday dinner. We kiss some more, but she's the one who breaks it off. I let her go to bed.

All told, I think I handled this relatively well. If this were just any other night, I would have pushed harder to a hard no. But given that she was legitimately tired, and given that she really went above the usual call of duty for dinner and cake, I didn't want to turn today into a negative experience. In time, she won't expect me to be "pissy" after she tells me no. And hopefully, after I MAP for longer, she won't be telling me no very often.

Romulus

@MiddleMan , seems to me your DW was a red for the evening and I think you handled it right by not pushing to a hard no.  Just MO.  There is always tomorrow!

Kheldar

I think you handled it fine.

I'm not sure how to make it happen, but I really wish my wife wouldn't knock herself out with acts of service for me when I'd be much happier with a nice sloppy blowjob. Still, cake & steak aren't bad!

AlphaVsBeta

Birthday sex is always tricky, especially if you don't plan well for the event. For me birthday sex has been both  mind-blowing and blah, all depending on how well I planned for it (like weeks in advance). I'm glad to see you had an OI A&A response ready for her! It WILL get better with practice!

Kheldar

I haven't had birthday sex for years. My wife wears herself out with acts of service -- dinner, inviting friends over to celebrate, entertaining. It's a good time, but by night time, she's asleep fast. My 40th was the only exception in recent memory.

Kheldar

newredpillrecruit said:

Kheldar said:

I haven't had birthday sex for years. My wife wears herself out with acts of service -- dinner, inviting friends over to celebrate, entertaining. It's a good time, but by night time, she's asleep fast. My 40th was the only exception in recent memory.

Initiate in the morning than.

I'll bet we've had morning sex less than 10 times of the approximately 6,500 mornings since we started having sex together. We've had our ebbs and flows on quanity and quality of other aspects of sex, but the morning thing has pretty well been a constant. 

MiddleMan

In my opinion, morning wood is a cruel, cruel joke. I wake up with the hardest hard-on imaginable, but I have to piss so badly that I can't ever use it. Then, when I finally awkwardly empty my bladder, I'm too tired to really be in the mood.

MiddleMan

DW's period started yesterday, a couple days earlier than expected. Which is a shame, as I was starting to feel confident enough to initiate to a hard no. But the period is a solid red (no pun intended).

I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that she'd be willing to give me a BJTC. Not yet.

So, MAPping on. Leg day at the gym today.

MiddleMan

I insisted on a hard no tonight. It's surprising how reluctant she was to give it. I initiated and she told me, "I'm not feeling it tonight." I told her "I can make you feel better." She giggled and said, "Ask me tomorrow."

Pre-MAP me would have let it go at that. But I said, "That wasn't a no." She said, "It's an 'ask me tomorrow.'" I said, "You're still not telling me no."

She flat out asked me, "Why are you making me the villain here?" I said, "Just own what's going on here. Just say you don't want to have sex." And she told me exactly that. When she asked why I was so insistent, I told her "Clear communication is important."

Now I know that this was probably too much talking and not enough action for the long-timers here. But at least I didn't let it slide and I insisted on her telling me no. I had good OI; I got to read a little more of A Dance With Dragons. There was no tension or pouting like there had been in the past.

She honestly did NOT want to say the words "I don't want to have sex with you tonight." I didn't let her off of that particular hook. Small victories?

MAP on.

MiddleMan

One other relevant piece of information for my previous post. It should be ovulation day for my wife. That wasn't any apparent help. She does have a cough that she can't shake, though.