Intro and a few questions to keep me afloat

ahaaha GASilver Member Posts: 98
I will complete a full triage here within the next few days. My story is quite cliche'. MMSLP was written for me.  I have completed the book (and now halfway through Mindful) and have come to learn that I'm a chump, have become betaized, failed every fitness test, and continued with this approach hoping my wife would finally see the "good in me" and come to her senses since she's been such a terrible wife.  What an idiot.  Needless to say, this has landed me in a sexless marriage (in the truest sense).  At this moment, I am experiencing a mix of hope and optimism for the first time since things went bad, and anger/shame since I now see that this was my fault and my W's behavior has simply been a response to the husband I've become. 

We're early 30's, married 6 years, no kids (we planned to wait awhile, but now it's not even a topic of discussion since our marriage is failing and is sexless). Things started taking a turn for the worse about 3 years in. No big bombshells to report... it all makes sense to me now after reading the book.  I am the epitome of the nice guy and failed to retain my alpha traits as the years passed by. 

My saving grace is that I'm naturally a sex rank pt. higher than her.  Call it 8 to 7.  She was aware of this when we first started dating, and for a least a year or two into our marriage.  To quote her "I always thought you were out of my league" and "I'm obsessed with you" were common remarks I would hear.  Sex in the beginning was however I said and whenever I said, and she was very engaged and would always have multiple orgasms.  The extent to which the tables have turned is mind boggling.  To quote her from just over a year ago when our marriage hit rock bottom "I'm no longer sexually attracted to you and I don't know how to get it back", said while uncontrollably crying.

I'll get more into detail when I triage, but I hope this paints the picture.  I can rule out an affair at this current moment, but I can't completely rule one out in the past.  MMSLP has opened my eyes to the fact that anything is possible, and that she has been desperately craving alpha.  She had been reading books and watching TV/movies with strong alpha male characters, so I'm hoping that's as far as she went to get her fill.  This activity has decreased over the past few months. 

About 8 months ago I decided to start focusing on my self, specifically fitness and income, and I'm reaping positive results.   I've always been somewhat in shape and athletic, but right now I'm in the best shape of my life... or at least since high school.  I've basically been running a half-assed MAP without even knowing it.  This, in itself, has grabbed the attention of W, as well as other women.

But being fit, without knowledge, can only go so far.  I've still been overwhelmingly beta and needy, and failing every fitness test she threw my way... this is, until I read MMSLP.  Like many of you, I started seeing positive reactions out of her immediately... mostly just from increasing my alpha and passing her tests.  It seemed as if I took one giant step forward, but now she's back to being pretty uninterested in me, even though I feel I'm continuing on the right path. So here are a few questions on some issued I'm struggling with.  I will continue to be aggressive with my MAP, but I need a little extra guidance to avoid taking a step backwards.

One important thing to add... over the past 2.5 years of so, the sex dwindled down to about once a month, to even less, then the occasional duty sex, eventually several rejections (which lead me to stop initiating)  and as we stand now, we haven't had sex in nearly a year.  The tension in our house can be pretty thick at times (even though I have completely stopped discussing the issue since learning that it only hurts my case).  Other times, we can be completely relaxed with each other and have a great time like nothing is wrong.

Here are my questions:


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Comments

  • ahaaha GASilver Member Posts: 98
    1. As I mentioned, after reading MMSL I was getting a great response from her.  She started looking at me in a way I never thought I'd see again.  She started seeking out my time and attention around the house more often.  Being more flirty and physical.  She had noticed previously that I was getting in better shape, but after upping my alpha, she started physically checking me out with her hands more often.  One morning I was laying in bed shirtless as she was up getting her day started.  She came in to talk to me and rubbed her hand playfully (but not sexually) up and down my chest and stomach.  She left the room and came back twice within the next few minutes to repeat this.  I know how minor this sounds, but this is not something she would've done in the past couple of years.  All throughout the month of Dec. I was getting little indicators like this out of her, but I just saw it as good progress and didn't want to get too aggressive.  January has been a different story.  It's as if she was excited about the changes in the beginning, and now she's over it already.  I'm even feeling really confident about my alpha progress and my ability to pass her shit tests.  In fact, she's not even testing anymore.  So my question is: Is this common?  Can anyone relate to this behavior and give me a little hope.  I was feeling so positive about everything for the first time in years, and now I feel like giving up again.  Did I perhaps blow it in Dec. by not putting a move on her after so many IOI's?  After all the rejections in the past and her even admitting to not being attracted to me, I'm just really having a hard time taking that step.  It's just been so long.
  • ahaaha GASilver Member Posts: 98
    2. This really a continuation of the first question.  After feeling really discouraged the past month, my resentment and anger are just building and I feel like I've just been disconnected and distant from her the past few days.  What is my correct move here?  I really have a hard time being kind to her when she's not even attempting to be a wife to me.  I feel like if I'm nice, then it's showing that I'm a doormat and she can continue on as she pleases.  However, when I'm distant (which I often do these days just to protect myself), I get the same in return from her, so this is obviously a bad choice as well.  I need to find a happy medium.  Any advice on this?

    3. An important part of my MAP is increasing my income, which I have been doing.  She responds well to money related DHV's.  Lately I've been treating her to nicer dinners that I wouldn't have been able to in years past and just overall spending more on her here and there so she see's that my career is flourishing.  But I'm rethinking this a little.  In a totally sexless marriage, aren't I just enabling her rebellion by showing that I'll still take her out and buy her things even though she's not sleeping with me?  Do I need to cut this off immediately?  Actually... do I need to just cut off our dates altogether?  Every weekend, it is assumed that we will get dressed, go out for a nice dinner and drinks and usually come home and watch a movie.  We almost always have a good time with each other and will be a little flirty/playful,  but the night always ends the same way... with a goodnight peck and it's lights out.  It's basically a friend date.  Week after week I'm left disappointed, but I get the feeling like she's pretty content with this arrangement. 

    So that's two separate questions really.  How to display income related DHV's appropriately and should I discontinue our "friend" dates.
  • ahaaha GASilver Member Posts: 98
    4. Last question for now.  I have made the huge mistake of telling her in the past that I absolutely will NOT be leaving her.  I won't get too religious/spiritual here, but basically I just told her that my convictions were strong on this issue, and that divorcing her is not something I would ever be initiating.  However, after speaking with a man with I respect enormously when it comes to topics like this, I may have changed my stance a bit.  Let's just say my convictions aren't as concrete as they once were.  I feel it is important that she is aware of this.  For one, she has made comments in the past that suggests she feels like I'm only continuing on with this marriage because I feel obligated, and not because I genuinely love her.  I'd like her to know that every day I'm still here in the house when she wakes up is because I've made a choice to continue on and fight for this marriage and not because I feel trapped.  Secondly, I think it's important that she have a healthy fear of the reality that I just might not be here one of those days.  That I may choose otherwise.  If she's working under the assumption that I would never leave under any circumstance, then she knows she has me by the balls and there's really no way I could fully become the leader of this marriage. So, I've been thinking about writing her a small note detailing this.  I don't see how having this conversation face to face could end well.  I would feel more comfortable in writing it out in a way that's clear and concise, yet doesn't seem like I'm making a threat.  Thoughts?
  • LernerLerner IrelandMember Posts: 19
    aha, I think the general advice around here tends to be "no letters!!" However, in your case, I think either a letter or a sit-down might help you reboot this marriage. I would highly recommend NOT bringing up divorce, as in, "Dear Wife, FYI, I know I said before I would never divorce you. I just want to let you know that, actually, I would divorce you under certain circumstances." That can backfire in multiple ways. It also sounds like, structurally, you've got alot going for you -- good job, $$$, health, fitness. Those are huge. But, yes, as you admit, you are at least partly responsible for the whole sexless marriage thing. She's also partly responsible, because even if she's "not attracted," she still does have some marital obligation to be somewhat of a sexual partner (my opinion, others might disagree).

    I think part of being a good leader is giving direction to the team, a little pep talk here and there. She may well just think in her head that you're "ok" with the sexless marriage. So, you might keep walking around flexing and bringing home the bacon, and she likes it but doesn't have any inkling what you're thinking. Sooooo, my initial advice here, as it sounds like you're pretty calm and not a crazy person who just discovered MMSLP, is to either write a note or make a calm statement to the effect: "In the past few years, I've realized that I've been too weak and not the strong man and husband that you desire. I'm sorry for that, but I'm on a new path now. I want a marriage that is fun, passionate, and sexy. As much as I love hanging out with you and doing fun things together, being in a sexless marriage is no longer acceptable to me [or is 'non-negotiable' -- she'll get the point]. I'm not sure how you feel about it, but I hope that it's not something you see as 'ideal' either. I'm going to lead us out of this mess and into what I hope will be a long, happy future together."

    Look, you're technically in "Phase One" per MMSLP because your wife totally controls the sex life; however, given what you've said, you can progress pretty quickly to where you truly do "outrank her," relatively speaking. A statement / note is not a Phase Four statement, but is just a "warning shot" or a way to shake things up so that you can get this party started. Since you've only been married 6 years, you should plan on devoting 6 more months or so not just to "self" improvement, but in relational improvement (better communication, return of at least some sexual contact) before you could move on to a more dramatic move (the Phase 4-5 thing).

    I'm curious, though, are you initiating sex and getting turned down? If not, when was the last time you even tried to have sex with her? If you are initiating, how does this usually play out. I can't even fathom getting turned down for a whole year by a healthy wife after just six years and no kids. It is a bit odd. :-/

  • kivirekikivireki north of HelsinkiMember Posts: 101
    Generally, letters really are a bad idea. A "state of the marriage" discussion is not a bad thing per se. How she'll react to any shake-up is another story. You don't actually have to have the discussion, it will come about naturally after a while as she realises what's going on.
    Questions:

     - What are you doing to stoke her responsive desire?
     - Do you get IOIs when out and about? Do you notice? Does she?
     - How do you dress? Combats 'n' sneakers?
     - You need some dread in her life - the "I'll never leave you" is cringeworthy from here. 
    You could also use that to start a conversation that goes "met x the other day, we talked about divorce. Something that came up: isn't marriage supposed to be a sexual relationship?" then walk away and *go out* for an hour or two.

     - I'd strongly suggest thinking about how to ensure you dress better and get some / more IOIs in front of her
     - lead - that means doing something cool and different for your average next date. Go to a different restaurant style. Go bowling first, to a gun range, to a car show, to a fashion show, to a mall that's further away. 
     - don't reward bad behaviour, ignore it. Reward good behaviour.

    Don't talk, don't write, do. What do you do matters far more than what you say.
    AngelineTimSim1971HildaCorners
  • SManSMan Silver Member Posts: 1,126
    @aha said:
    she has been desperately craving alpha. 
    She had been reading books and watching TV/movies with strong alpha male characters,

    Learn from this.

    She's inadvertently given you a clue.

    Watch a few of these movies, and even read a couple of these books.

    Learn what Alpha traits turn her on

    (BTW- two of the most successful seducers I have ever known have said that every guy who wants to be massively successful with women should read some romance novels and pay attention to what the Hero characters do, and are like.  Reading these things can be kind of painful, they tend to be written in a code that looks like terrible writing style to guys, but is actually a female language that can be learned.)

    And relevant to the above- have you ever noticed in chick flicks with a super Alpha male lead, he's aloof until he makes his decision, then he sweeps the Heroine up in his arms and takes her away.

    This "swept away" metaphor is one that many women seem to instinctively understand.  The fact that your wife is into this kind of thing is an indication that it could be very effective for you.
    Angelineredheaded_woman
  • SManSMan Silver Member Posts: 1,126
    edited February 2014
    aha said:
    Every weekend, it is assumed that we will get dressed, go out for a nice dinner and drinks and usually come home and watch a movie.  We almost always have a good time with each other and will be a little flirty/playful,  but the night always ends the same way... with a goodnight peck and it's lights out. 

    One word: Initiate!

    You like those AFCs out there in the singles world who don't get laid because they just won't grab the brass ring when the moment to close arrives.

    Some suggestions:

    Playful caressing, take a 10 sec kiss, flip her over & pull her into the spooning position then start with the movements that do the right thing for her (that you've discovered experimentally, because you initiate . . . :) )

    You should research some concepts from the seduction world (yes, the seduction sphere, the PUA world.)  Just because she's married to you doesn't mean you don't have to seduce her!

    • Learn how to recognize IOIs- the IOIs she uses subconsciously.  There's a ton of material out there about this.
    •  learn what are referred to as "buying temperature tests" (David DeAngelo has some excellent ones, in particular the hair stroke test.)
    ________________________________________________________

    Anyways, on to a very important concept:

    When a woman wants to be taken, and her man doesn't do it, it's actually one of the worst things that can happen.  That actually is worse than an ordinary DLV, it builds either resentment, or a sort of resistant state that is hard to break through.

    Yeah, it's a covert contract, because the man is supposed to be a mindreader (actually a guy who pays attention to the "signs") and have the guts to "just do it," and, yes, he does get subconsciously blamed if he doesn't. But that's life with a woman. The guy has to initiate.

    Take her.

    If she resists, use A&A, or get playful, about how sad you are that she missing out on life by refusing the "Joy of Sex", or whatever, then maintain your OI.  Start experimenting and find out what the keys to her mind & heart are.

    and learn some seduction skills . . .
    ______________________________
    As a bonus: Seduction 101.

    Don't be that Average Frustrated Chump who takes her on dinner dates that are the uber-expensive equivalent of buying a girl a drink in a bar.

    You don't want to be putting on displays of Providership right now.

    Yes, all this wining and dining and "rewarding the bad, rather than the good" has taken its toll.  But there are many ways to recover.

    And you can still do the dates, but change the way they happen.  Firstly, become the prize, not the provider.

    Also, reward the good, and don't reward the bad.

    So create something she can do that you can reward.

    When you go out, start to incrementally ramp up her sexyness, and reward that.

    The reward can be something as simple as changing your level of aloofness, and stroking her, giving her more confidence.
     
    Tease her about being a PowerPuff Girl, then tell her you're going to turn her into your personal Arm Candy . . . read up on this stuf in the SeductionSphere.
    Angeline
  • The_DudeThe_Dude Hollywood Star LanesGold Men Posts: 4,583
    Be very careful. She is perfectly set up for an affair. Fix the situation ASAP.
    Angeline[Deleted User]SignorePillolaRossaredheaded_woman
  • SManSMan Silver Member Posts: 1,126
    @aha , @The_Dude is absolutely right.

    You have a time window here to become The Guy She Would Have An Affair With.

    Angeline
  • kivirekikivireki north of HelsinkiMember Posts: 101
     should have grabbed her in the moment, gone all caveman, and fucked her hard. This was her initiating.
    ^^ this. Realised it today - seriously, you won't get it any more blatant than this. If she's stopped doing it, then she was testing the waters to see and you've set yourself back some, but not necessarily much.
    Angeline
  • AngelineAngeline planting seedsCategory Moderator** Posts: 14,500
    edited February 2014
    Re: date nights - if you're flirty and having fun by the end of the evening, don't go home. Neck like teenagers in the car, and drive straight to a cheap hotel. If you get a hard no in the parking lot, shrug your shoulders and drive home. But have some fun with it first - don't cave right away. "It's OK, your parents think you're at (friend's) house! They'll never find out" and ramp up the kissing and groping. If she giggles, you're in.

    The key sentence that leaped out at me was "this said while sobbing uncontrollably". To me that means she still desperately wants to be attracted to you, and is just as sad and confused as you were. This seems like a great sign to me. It is also a reason I'd consider a brief statement of what your goals are regarding a 100% effort towards fixing this marrriage before giving up, and how that might be helpful in your case. The fact that you started out with a higher SR and she knows it and said it to you often, means some of the pushback you will get when you make changes will be loyalty tests and not fitness tests. Be sure and search around the forum for the difference between the two, and some tactics for how to handle them from a strong position.

    One of those tactics is to hold her face, look into her eyes, and give a strong, forceful statement that you are in this to make it work, make it a loving, happy, fun, sexy marriage, and you will accept nothing less, and that you aren't a quitter. Clench her for a passionate, gropey kiss. Don't say more than a couple of sentences, and certainly don't write it in a letter.

    I get that a letter is attempting to not get angry or emotional or stumble or leave anything out. The last thing you need is more bloodless, safe, wordy communications. Decide your position, be succinct, say your piece, move on.

    "Where did all this come from?"
    "Why are you working out so much/making all these changes?"
    "Did you read a book or something?"
    Any of those questions could be nervous wondering if you're about to leave her. Since its January, you can use that, looking directly at her. One thing an alpha does is not duck away from difficult truths or things he wants. "I wasn't going to let another year go by with both of us being miserable. I'm going to fix this marriage, starting with becoming the best me I can be."

    Even if you have to psych yourself up out in your car to do it, come into your house like the warrior returning home from war. Sweep into the house cheerful and bursting with the energy from the mastodon slaying you've been doing. Bellow, "Woman of the house! Come this instant and give your man a hug and kiss!" Finish up with a nice grope and firm little slap on the ass. Look around, stand up tall, throw your head back and say, "Ahhhh. It's good to be home. What's for dinner?"

    I'm a big believer in thinking of heroic role models, and how they would do things, when you're trying to change a pattern. Pick somebody who you think embodies the ideals in MMSLP and when you struggle, think, "what would _____ do?" Could be Grandpa, could be John Wayne.

    In the meantime, you've given a lot of info, but a full triage would be helpful when you have time.
    "Speak your truth." - Scarlet
    Remember to play!
    Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
    Be married, until you are not.

    Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
    [Deleted User]redheaded_womantinygirl
  • dalefdalef Silver Member Posts: 1,963
    She sees you working on getting sexier, and yet you are trying to have sex with her and ignore her advances. Just who are you getting sexy for? You do NOT want to tell her you are reconsidering your stance on divorce, she will hear that as what the other woman is telling you.
    The_Dude[Deleted User]
  • ahaaha GASilver Member Posts: 98
    I have a quick minute and just wanted to answer a few questions.  Thanks a ton for all the great advice.  The overall picture is becoming a little more clear.  I know a full triage is going to help out and I hope to sit down tonight and complete it. 

    About the whole SR, IOI's, and how I dress.  At this time, I am still a natural SR higher than her.  Over the past few months I have slowly started buying new, better fitting clothes and have stopped wearing anything I think she'd be less than thrilled about.  She has been having a lot of fun with this herself, and even bought me a few things here and there... even including some really tight and colorful underwear.  Based on what she has bought me and has pointed out in the store or a catalog, I'm getting an idea of what style she likes and I'm doing a pretty good job obtaining it.

    I do get IOI's from other girls in public, but that's nothing new for me.  I don't want to sound arrogant, but I've always been a good looking guy and oddly enough, I've only experienced rejection from my wife.  As far as her noticing the IOI's, I know she does from time to time, but there have been a few recent ones that I wish she would've witnessed but didn't. 

    I see that one of the main issues here is that I have NO confidence when it comes to my wife.  If I was single and walked into a bar tonight I would feel pretty confident about talking to and having a shot at most of the girls in there.  But with my wife, all I can hear over and over in my head is "I'm not sexually attracted to you anymore".  This was said way before I understood any of this alpha/beta stuff, so I thought for the longest time that is was some sort of physical hang up she had with me that she couldn't look past.  This is not rational thinking though, as I am in better shape now than the day we got married and nothing else has really changed about me.  Her attraction loss with me is entirely a result of my betaization and failure to be the man and leader of our marriage.  This woman has witnessed me crying over her on more than one occasion.  Enough said.

    So no, I haven't been initiating as this all started happening really fast and I just wanted to roll with the momentum.  She just started giving me these IOI's in Dec, so I would've never thought that they were going to stop shortly after.  I figured we'd continue in that direction and I'd make my move soon.  But now it looks like I had my opportunity and blew it, and now I have to dig my way out of this.  It is not a mistake I will make twice. 

    Also, any more thoughts about how I can undo that horrible mistake of telling her I would never leave?  I understand how that could be a very disastrous conversation, but I have to believe that this is a critical step in saving this.  Grabbing her and ensuring her that I'm committed to this marriage, and that I love her very much is one thing... but I feel like there is this underlying thought within her that says "of course you are committed, you don't believe in divorcing me so you have no other choice but to be committed".  From a woman's point of view, wouldn't you rather know that your husband isn't morally opposed to leaving you, yet is so committed and loves you to the extent that he's staying with you and fighting for the marriage?  Also, there may be the other underlying thought within her that says "he doesn't believe in leaving me so the power's in my hands and I can do whatever I want without fear of major consequence". 
    Ltiger
  • ahaaha GASilver Member Posts: 98
    I'll add that another reason I haven't been initiating is because I'm still grasping this OI philosophy.  I've experienced a lot of hurt and had some long sleepless nights after rejections from her in the past.  This eventually lead me to stop initiating altogether.  Abstinence became a better option than rejection from the woman you love. 

    Once she started showing interest again, I think I built up this idea of initiating to be one huge critical moment that was going to make or break our marriage.  I was thinking that a hard no would mean that I hadn't made the progress with her I was hoping I had, and I was afraid I'd slip back into hopelessness.  I need to understand that she could give a hard no one night and we could very well have sex the following night. 
  • SManSMan Silver Member Posts: 1,126
    edited February 2014
    @aha said:
    Also, any more thoughts about how I can undo that horrible mistake of telling her I would never leave?  I understand how that could be a very disastrous conversation, but I have to believe that this is a critical step in saving this.  Grabbing her and ensuring her that I'm committed to this marriage, and that I love her very much is one thing... but I feel like there is this underlying thought within her that says "of course you are committed, you don't believe in divorcing me so you have no other choice but to be committed".  From a woman's point of view, wouldn't you rather know that your husband isn't morally opposed to leaving you, yet is so committed and loves you to the extent that he's staying with you and fighting for the marriage?  Also, there may be the other underlying thought within her that says "he doesn't believe in leaving me so the power's in my hands and I can do whatever I want without fear of major consequence". 
    You've summarized the reasons why saying you would never divorce is a bad thing to do.

    And yes, you have handed over your power- and betaized yourself.

    Why have you betaized yourself?

    Because a woman gets a sense of security from knowing that she has an Alpha who will never compromise on getting the best- getting results.

    This is hardwired.  It comes form her need to feel that she can trust her man to "stand up for himself" and, by extension, for her . . .

    Saying you would stay in the marriage no matter what she would do, is declaring that you won't stand up for yourself.  (BTW- I use the sentence "stand up for himself" because those are the exact words I have heard many times from women.) 

    Think about it.  Would nothing make you leave the marriage?  If she took out a contract on you with a hitman, would you not divorce her?  Women have done that . . .

    So, when a guy declares he'll never divorce her does 2 negative things:
    1. raises her perceived sex rank
    2. instills a subconscious betaization in her, because he's said he wouldn't stand up for himself

    ________________________________________

    So, what to do.

    Think about the First Rule of Fight Club.

    Let's paraphrase it for Alphaization.

    Rule No. 1 of Alpha Club:   You don't talk about Alpha Club

    Rule No. 2 of Alpha Club: You don't, Ever, talk about Alpha Club

    Rule No. 3 of Alpha Club: You demonstrate Alphaization

    Rule No. 4 of Alpha Club: When your woman taps out and surrenders, you sweep her away.

    _________________________________

    So, to continue:

    Talk is cheap.  You Alphaize yourself in her eyes through Action and Subcommunication.

    I mean, think about what will happen if you go up to her and say: "Well, I'm over my resolve not to divorce.  I will divorce you if things don't shape up."

    The poor woman is already dealing with enough dread.  This can only cause bad things to happen.

    So, how do you subcommunicate?   A definition is here:

    http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/247742#Comment_247742

    You don't sit her down to have "The Talk." You incorporate your new view of divorce (and everything else) into your life, and it peeks out all by itself as you live life together with her.

    and, to give you an idea of how subcommunication works IRL, @RedBird has given us a perfect example ( http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/248207#Comment_248207 )

    'This just came up in conversation with W today.  In talking about our struggling friends, I mentioned that their lacking sex life was a driving factor and is a problem in most break-ups.  W said "Is that a warning?"  I said "It's a fact."'



  • SManSMan Silver Member Posts: 1,126
    BTW @aha , could I recommend you search for information on sexual sub communication by coach Michelle Terrell.

    She's got some very good stuff, esp. some YouTube videos, on adding Alpha to your interactions like handshaking, hugging, and the like.  Esp. think about her advice to lead from the chest.
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