I will complete a full triage here within the next few days. My story is quite cliche'. MMSLP was written for me. I have completed the book (and now halfway through Mindful) and have come to learn that I'm a chump, have become betaized, failed every fitness test, and continued with this approach hoping my wife would finally see the "good in me" and come to her senses since she's been such a terrible wife. What an idiot. Needless to say, this has landed me in a sexless marriage (in the truest sense). At this moment, I am experiencing a mix of hope and optimism for the first time since things went bad, and anger/shame since I now see that this was my fault and my W's behavior has simply been a response to the husband I've become.
We're early 30's, married 6 years, no kids (we planned to wait awhile, but now it's not even a topic of discussion since our marriage is failing and is sexless). Things started taking a turn for the worse about 3 years in. No big bombshells to report... it all makes sense to me now after reading the book. I am the epitome of the nice guy and failed to retain my alpha traits as the years passed by.
My saving grace is that I'm naturally a sex rank pt. higher than her. Call it 8 to 7. She was aware of this when we first started dating, and for a least a year or two into our marriage. To quote her "I always thought you were out of my league" and "I'm obsessed with you" were common remarks I would hear. Sex in the beginning was however I said and whenever I said, and she was very engaged and would always have multiple orgasms. The extent to which the tables have turned is mind boggling. To quote her from just over a year ago when our marriage hit rock bottom "I'm no longer sexually attracted to you and I don't know how to get it back", said while uncontrollably crying.
I'll get more into detail when I triage, but I hope this paints the picture. I can rule out an affair at this current moment, but I can't completely rule one out in the past. MMSLP has opened my eyes to the fact that anything is possible, and that she has been desperately craving alpha. She had been reading books and watching TV/movies with strong alpha male characters, so I'm hoping that's as far as she went to get her fill. This activity has decreased over the past few months.
About 8 months ago I decided to start focusing on my self, specifically fitness and income, and I'm reaping positive results. I've always been somewhat in shape and athletic, but right now I'm in the best shape of my life... or at least since high school. I've basically been running a half-assed MAP without even knowing it. This, in itself, has grabbed the attention of W, as well as other women.
But being fit, without knowledge, can only go so far. I've still been overwhelmingly beta and needy, and failing every fitness test she threw my way... this is, until I read MMSLP. Like many of you, I started seeing positive reactions out of her immediately... mostly just from increasing my alpha and passing her tests. It seemed as if I took one giant step forward, but now she's back to being pretty uninterested in me, even though I feel I'm continuing on the right path. So here are a few questions on some issued I'm struggling with. I will continue to be aggressive with my MAP, but I need a little extra guidance to avoid taking a step backwards.
One important thing to add... over the past 2.5 years of so, the sex dwindled down to about once a month, to even less, then the occasional duty sex, eventually several rejections (which lead me to stop initiating) and as we stand now, we haven't had sex in nearly a year. The tension in our house can be pretty thick at times (even though I have completely stopped discussing the issue since learning that it only hurts my case). Other times, we can be completely relaxed with each other and have a great time like nothing is wrong.
Here are my questions:
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Comments
3. An important part of my MAP is increasing my income, which I have been doing. She responds well to money related DHV's. Lately I've been treating her to nicer dinners that I wouldn't have been able to in years past and just overall spending more on her here and there so she see's that my career is flourishing. But I'm rethinking this a little. In a totally sexless marriage, aren't I just enabling her rebellion by showing that I'll still take her out and buy her things even though she's not sleeping with me? Do I need to cut this off immediately? Actually... do I need to just cut off our dates altogether? Every weekend, it is assumed that we will get dressed, go out for a nice dinner and drinks and usually come home and watch a movie. We almost always have a good time with each other and will be a little flirty/playful, but the night always ends the same way... with a goodnight peck and it's lights out. It's basically a friend date. Week after week I'm left disappointed, but I get the feeling like she's pretty content with this arrangement.
So that's two separate questions really. How to display income related DHV's appropriately and should I discontinue our "friend" dates.
I think part of being a good leader is giving direction to the team, a little pep talk here and there. She may well just think in her head that you're "ok" with the sexless marriage. So, you might keep walking around flexing and bringing home the bacon, and she likes it but doesn't have any inkling what you're thinking. Sooooo, my initial advice here, as it sounds like you're pretty calm and not a crazy person who just discovered MMSLP, is to either write a note or make a calm statement to the effect: "In the past few years, I've realized that I've been too weak and not the strong man and husband that you desire. I'm sorry for that, but I'm on a new path now. I want a marriage that is fun, passionate, and sexy. As much as I love hanging out with you and doing fun things together, being in a sexless marriage is no longer acceptable to me [or is 'non-negotiable' -- she'll get the point]. I'm not sure how you feel about it, but I hope that it's not something you see as 'ideal' either. I'm going to lead us out of this mess and into what I hope will be a long, happy future together."
Look, you're technically in "Phase One" per MMSLP because your wife totally controls the sex life; however, given what you've said, you can progress pretty quickly to where you truly do "outrank her," relatively speaking. A statement / note is not a Phase Four statement, but is just a "warning shot" or a way to shake things up so that you can get this party started. Since you've only been married 6 years, you should plan on devoting 6 more months or so not just to "self" improvement, but in relational improvement (better communication, return of at least some sexual contact) before you could move on to a more dramatic move (the Phase 4-5 thing).
I'm curious, though, are you initiating sex and getting turned down? If not, when was the last time you even tried to have sex with her? If you are initiating, how does this usually play out. I can't even fathom getting turned down for a whole year by a healthy wife after just six years and no kids. It is a bit odd. :-/
You should have grabbed her in the moment, gone all caveman, and fucked her hard. This was her initiating.
You have some rebuilding to do.
Take what is yours as an Alpha male, be that romance novel Hero.
She's inadvertently given you a clue.
Watch a few of these movies, and even read a couple of these books.
Learn what Alpha traits turn her on
(BTW- two of the most successful seducers I have ever known have said that every guy who wants to be massively successful with women should read some romance novels and pay attention to what the Hero characters do, and are like. Reading these things can be kind of painful, they tend to be written in a code that looks like terrible writing style to guys, but is actually a female language that can be learned.)
And relevant to the above- have you ever noticed in chick flicks with a super Alpha male lead, he's aloof until he makes his decision, then he sweeps the Heroine up in his arms and takes her away.
This "swept away" metaphor is one that many women seem to instinctively understand. The fact that your wife is into this kind of thing is an indication that it could be very effective for you.
Massive mistake.
This stuff needs to be subcommunicated.
You like those AFCs out there in the singles world who don't get laid because they just won't grab the brass ring when the moment to close arrives.
Some suggestions:
Playful caressing, take a 10 sec kiss, flip her over & pull her into the spooning position then start with the movements that do the right thing for her (that you've discovered experimentally, because you initiate . . . )
You should research some concepts from the seduction world (yes, the seduction sphere, the PUA world.) Just because she's married to you doesn't mean you don't have to seduce her!
- Learn how to recognize IOIs- the IOIs she uses subconsciously. There's a ton of material out there about this.
- learn what are referred to as "buying temperature tests" (David DeAngelo has some excellent ones, in particular the hair stroke test.)
________________________________________________________Anyways, on to a very important concept:
When a woman wants to be taken, and her man doesn't do it, it's actually one of the worst things that can happen. That actually is worse than an ordinary DLV, it builds either resentment, or a sort of resistant state that is hard to break through.
Yeah, it's a covert contract, because the man is supposed to be a mindreader (actually a guy who pays attention to the "signs") and have the guts to "just do it," and, yes, he does get subconsciously blamed if he doesn't. But that's life with a woman. The guy has to initiate.
Take her.
If she resists, use A&A, or get playful, about how sad you are that she missing out on life by refusing the "Joy of Sex", or whatever, then maintain your OI. Start experimenting and find out what the keys to her mind & heart are.
and learn some seduction skills . . .
______________________________
As a bonus: Seduction 101.
Don't be that Average Frustrated Chump who takes her on dinner dates that are the uber-expensive equivalent of buying a girl a drink in a bar.
You don't want to be putting on displays of Providership right now.
Yes, all this wining and dining and "rewarding the bad, rather than the good" has taken its toll. But there are many ways to recover.
And you can still do the dates, but change the way they happen. Firstly, become the prize, not the provider.
Also, reward the good, and don't reward the bad.
So create something she can do that you can reward.
When you go out, start to incrementally ramp up her sexyness, and reward that.
The reward can be something as simple as changing your level of aloofness, and stroking her, giving her more confidence.
Tease her about being a PowerPuff Girl, then tell her you're going to turn her into your personal Arm Candy . . . read up on this stuf in the SeductionSphere.
You have a time window here to become The Guy She Would Have An Affair With.
The key sentence that leaped out at me was "this said while sobbing uncontrollably". To me that means she still desperately wants to be attracted to you, and is just as sad and confused as you were. This seems like a great sign to me. It is also a reason I'd consider a brief statement of what your goals are regarding a 100% effort towards fixing this marrriage before giving up, and how that might be helpful in your case. The fact that you started out with a higher SR and she knows it and said it to you often, means some of the pushback you will get when you make changes will be loyalty tests and not fitness tests. Be sure and search around the forum for the difference between the two, and some tactics for how to handle them from a strong position.
One of those tactics is to hold her face, look into her eyes, and give a strong, forceful statement that you are in this to make it work, make it a loving, happy, fun, sexy marriage, and you will accept nothing less, and that you aren't a quitter. Clench her for a passionate, gropey kiss. Don't say more than a couple of sentences, and certainly don't write it in a letter.
I get that a letter is attempting to not get angry or emotional or stumble or leave anything out. The last thing you need is more bloodless, safe, wordy communications. Decide your position, be succinct, say your piece, move on.
"Where did all this come from?"
"Why are you working out so much/making all these changes?"
"Did you read a book or something?"
Any of those questions could be nervous wondering if you're about to leave her. Since its January, you can use that, looking directly at her. One thing an alpha does is not duck away from difficult truths or things he wants. "I wasn't going to let another year go by with both of us being miserable. I'm going to fix this marriage, starting with becoming the best me I can be."
Even if you have to psych yourself up out in your car to do it, come into your house like the warrior returning home from war. Sweep into the house cheerful and bursting with the energy from the mastodon slaying you've been doing. Bellow, "Woman of the house! Come this instant and give your man a hug and kiss!" Finish up with a nice grope and firm little slap on the ass. Look around, stand up tall, throw your head back and say, "Ahhhh. It's good to be home. What's for dinner?"
I'm a big believer in thinking of heroic role models, and how they would do things, when you're trying to change a pattern. Pick somebody who you think embodies the ideals in MMSLP and when you struggle, think, "what would _____ do?" Could be Grandpa, could be John Wayne.
In the meantime, you've given a lot of info, but a full triage would be helpful when you have time.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
About the whole SR, IOI's, and how I dress. At this time, I am still a natural SR higher than her. Over the past few months I have slowly started buying new, better fitting clothes and have stopped wearing anything I think she'd be less than thrilled about. She has been having a lot of fun with this herself, and even bought me a few things here and there... even including some really tight and colorful underwear. Based on what she has bought me and has pointed out in the store or a catalog, I'm getting an idea of what style she likes and I'm doing a pretty good job obtaining it.
I do get IOI's from other girls in public, but that's nothing new for me. I don't want to sound arrogant, but I've always been a good looking guy and oddly enough, I've only experienced rejection from my wife. As far as her noticing the IOI's, I know she does from time to time, but there have been a few recent ones that I wish she would've witnessed but didn't.
I see that one of the main issues here is that I have NO confidence when it comes to my wife. If I was single and walked into a bar tonight I would feel pretty confident about talking to and having a shot at most of the girls in there. But with my wife, all I can hear over and over in my head is "I'm not sexually attracted to you anymore". This was said way before I understood any of this alpha/beta stuff, so I thought for the longest time that is was some sort of physical hang up she had with me that she couldn't look past. This is not rational thinking though, as I am in better shape now than the day we got married and nothing else has really changed about me. Her attraction loss with me is entirely a result of my betaization and failure to be the man and leader of our marriage. This woman has witnessed me crying over her on more than one occasion. Enough said.
So no, I haven't been initiating as this all started happening really fast and I just wanted to roll with the momentum. She just started giving me these IOI's in Dec, so I would've never thought that they were going to stop shortly after. I figured we'd continue in that direction and I'd make my move soon. But now it looks like I had my opportunity and blew it, and now I have to dig my way out of this. It is not a mistake I will make twice.
Also, any more thoughts about how I can undo that horrible mistake of telling her I would never leave? I understand how that could be a very disastrous conversation, but I have to believe that this is a critical step in saving this. Grabbing her and ensuring her that I'm committed to this marriage, and that I love her very much is one thing... but I feel like there is this underlying thought within her that says "of course you are committed, you don't believe in divorcing me so you have no other choice but to be committed". From a woman's point of view, wouldn't you rather know that your husband isn't morally opposed to leaving you, yet is so committed and loves you to the extent that he's staying with you and fighting for the marriage? Also, there may be the other underlying thought within her that says "he doesn't believe in leaving me so the power's in my hands and I can do whatever I want without fear of major consequence".
Once she started showing interest again, I think I built up this idea of initiating to be one huge critical moment that was going to make or break our marriage. I was thinking that a hard no would mean that I hadn't made the progress with her I was hoping I had, and I was afraid I'd slip back into hopelessness. I need to understand that she could give a hard no one night and we could very well have sex the following night.
"Treating her like a princess didn't make me a prince, it made me a servant."
Link to triage questions: http://marriedmansexlife.com/triage-your-relationship-and-the-911-er-category/
And yes, you have handed over your power- and betaized yourself.
Why have you betaized yourself?
Because a woman gets a sense of security from knowing that she has an Alpha who will never compromise on getting the best- getting results.
This is hardwired. It comes form her need to feel that she can trust her man to "stand up for himself" and, by extension, for her . . .
Saying you would stay in the marriage no matter what she would do, is declaring that you won't stand up for yourself. (BTW- I use the sentence "stand up for himself" because those are the exact words I have heard many times from women.)
Think about it. Would nothing make you leave the marriage? If she took out a contract on you with a hitman, would you not divorce her? Women have done that . . .
So, when a guy declares he'll never divorce her does 2 negative things:
________________________________________
So, what to do.
Think about the First Rule of Fight Club.
Let's paraphrase it for Alphaization.
Rule No. 1 of Alpha Club: You don't talk about Alpha Club
Rule No. 2 of Alpha Club: You don't, Ever, talk about Alpha Club
Rule No. 3 of Alpha Club: You demonstrate Alphaization
Rule No. 4 of Alpha Club: When your woman taps out and surrenders, you sweep her away.
_________________________________
So, to continue:
Talk is cheap. You Alphaize yourself in her eyes through Action and Subcommunication.
I mean, think about what will happen if you go up to her and say: "Well, I'm over my resolve not to divorce. I will divorce you if things don't shape up."The poor woman is already dealing with enough dread. This can only cause bad things to happen.
So, how do you subcommunicate? A definition is here:
http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/247742#Comment_247742
You don't sit her down to have "The Talk." You incorporate your new view of divorce (and everything else) into your life, and it peeks out all by itself as you live life together with her.
and, to give you an idea of how subcommunication works IRL, @RedBird has given us a perfect example ( http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/248207#Comment_248207 )
'This just came up in conversation with W today. In talking about our struggling friends, I mentioned that their lacking sex life was a driving factor and is a problem in most break-ups. W said "Is that a warning?" I said "It's a fact."'
She's got some very good stuff, esp. some YouTube videos, on adding Alpha to your interactions like handshaking, hugging, and the like. Esp. think about her advice to lead from the chest.